Regarding VW ... It depends whether it is the torque-converter automatic, or the automated-manual DSG.

The 01M torque converter gearboxes are very inefficient & will drop your MPGs significantly. Do not get one of these.

The VW DSG is nearly as good as a manual, but is geared slightly low (which is why it isn't quite as good). As you have noted, it is expensive.

If you do find a TDI with a manual box, snap it up. Try asking around on the TDIClub forum.

PS you may find it easier to locate a VW Jetta TDI with a manual box. Do you really need the extra sheet metal?

Draigflag
Jun 29, 2012
9:27 AM

Kia Rio 1.1 diesel does 94 MPG, Fiat Punto 1.3 diesel does 97 MPG (no thats not a typo!) pretty much every car manufacturer in Europe now has a small economical car that will do 60 to 90 MPG due to strict emission standards and spiraling fuel prices!

Good luck

If you haven't read the archives at blogs.insideline.com, spend some time there before you make any decisions. Make sure to read about their recent long-term Jetta TDI, that will be in the archive, but they have a current Camry four-cylinder too, and hundreds of other cars.

i have a 2011 jetta tdi with the dsg tranny. trying to find a tdi with a manual in a color you can live with, is very difficult, hence why i have a dsg. the only flaw i have with the dsg is when driving at low speed (ie. parking lot or parking structure.) the dsg is very jerky at low speeds in the above situations. the other downside is that you have to flush/fill the dsg every 40k miles at a cost of $300 ish. as for mileage, i get around 38.8mpg combined, but i drive around 80mpg on the highway. (i assume i could get better if i slowed down, but coming from a 4runner, i am good with the 38mpg)

I was asking myself the same question a year ago. Cruze Eco was a newer car, not much info on it, and I fell in love with the idea of hybrid like fuel economy in a sub-$20k price. So I bought one.
2011 Chevy Cruze Eco, 6-Speed. Love my mpg (51.3 last tank), though I am using some hypermiler techniques. I have a route that I can go to work that has very little traffic and very few turns or stops.
I feel like I am settling for my fit and finish though. Much better interior than my wifes 2006 Buick Rendezvous (and my brother in laws Cobalt), but definately not in love with it.
6-speed shifts firm and crisp, but the high torque @ 2k RPM make the shift very noticable to passengers.
My previous car was a 1995 Audi A6 Quattro 5-Speed. Even @ 200k miles that car had a much smoother shifts and better interior. I miss everything about that car except premium fuel and 22 MPG.

Thank you all for your input, I appreciate your time and consideration.

MMUK, I do need the extra sheet metal, I have 3 kids and they are all big and getting bigger. Truth be told, the Jetti SportWagon would probably be the best fit for my personal lifestyle, surfing, biking, etc. that all need the greater interior space of a wagon but the rear seat just isn't wide enough to get the family into.

Draigflag, unfortunately, our EPA on this side of the pond and Air Quality Management Districts aren't interested in true fuel economy, only in their bribes, err, I mean political contribution funds, and favors to corporate supporters. If they were honest and fair, the TDI's, Chevy Volt (with or without the low emmissions package), Chevy Cruze ECO, MiniCooper, and many others would be eligible for the High Occupancy Vehicle Lane Stickers, but alas, those eligibility figures are based more upon bribes and favors than fuel economy. So I'm limited to what is available on my side of the pond, also again I need more space than the tiny microcars afford.

BDC, thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Toycop, I currently get my tranny flushed and refilled every 15K miles at about $150 a pop so that doesn't seem unreasonable to me, thanks for the real world figures on the TDI dsg, that is all that I've been able to find so far.

HolySdrJR, is your Cruze Eco an automatic or stick shift? I'm guessing from the hard shifts that it is an auto since you could feather the clutch on a stick to soften the jolts. I do like the fit and finish of the VW, but like you the price point and mileage of the Cruze appeals to me. How many miles do you have on your Cruze? Was there a break in before your mileage numbers came up to the 50+ MPG range? My current commute is about 35/65 highway to city driving so I don't expect to be able to do much better than 40 mpg but that would be a great improvement over my current 27ish in my Acura Integra.

Hi,

Note that it is possible to retrofit a 02J 5 speed manual gearbox to replace an 01M auto box in a VW. (Whether it is worthwhile is a harder question), and in fact some people retrofit an 02M 6-speed manual unit in. Take a look at the TDI club forums (for example, RyanP's 02M 6-speed tranny conversions). You'd be looking at somewhere between $1500-2500, and it would need a gearbox specialist to help with the work. In fact I recently upgraded my 5-speed 02J box to a 6-speed using a kit (keeping the existing 02J and basically bolting another gear on).

My wifes cruze is the basic 1.8 with the auto and it gets about 34 combined 80% city. I wanted to buy the TDI jetta but didn't find it fesible. It seems like the maintenance schedules are not as a normal car would be and is a lot more regular not including the poor quality most report with electrical grimlens and such. How many people know there is a timing belt change schedule if they are just switching to VW? Not many as it seems on the forums. I wish I would have gotten the eco, but the wife didn't want one and it's her car.

Why consider a Passat TDI and not a Camry Hybrid? Way faster, same price, same mileage, higher quality and better reliability. No manual trans option, but you don't have to pay extra for a crappy shifting DSG either.

There is a very, very good reason why the Passat is the North American car of the year (and that's the standard version, not the TDI which is better), I'll just leave it at that.

OP, sounds like you should be looking for a Jetta Sportwagen anyway. Beter size and space, same MPG and a lot of nice features in a slightly less expensive package.

Draigflag
Jul 16, 2012
2:10 PM

Everyone seems to bang on about the passat and jetta Tdi. Are they the only diesel sedans available in the US? I think around 60% of cars in Europe are now diesels, but they seem far less common in the us.

I think the New Beetle & Golf is out there too, but the Jetta seems to be the most common.

In terms of car/SUVs, it's really only Audi, BMW, Merc, and VW that have any diesel engines in America. We have tougher emissions standards than Europe which is why Ford has a ton of diesel cars in the EU market and none here. The auto makers just do not want to invest the time and money to make the engines comply with American standards

Draigflag
Jul 16, 2012
11:57 PM

That makes no sense. Europe has famously high emision standards, hence all the diesels which emit far less carbon dioxide than most petrol cars. Have you seen the Aston Martin Cygnet? Its an Aston the size of a smart car. Each car manufacturer must have an average co2 emission reading across thier range now, hence why we are seeing these tiny cars with prestige badges!

The VW diesels just proves this, if they can get through your emision standards, then every other diesel car will, some emit less than half the carbon that the VW does.

I'm sure we've had this identical discussion before. The European emissions rules are focused on CO2 & particulates, whereas the US rules are focused on NOx emissions & particulates. So an engine which is good for one set of rules doesn't always obey the other rules.

Draigflag
Jul 17, 2012
2:22 AM

And didnt I ask how a 5.0 litre V10 diesel truck that burns a gallon of fuel every 9 miles could some how emit less that a tiny 1.1 litre eco diesel car that does almost 100 MPG and is specifically tuned to emit less ( considering we pay carbon based taxes on our cars) its a very grey area.

What, Draigflaig thought this forum was his soapbox to complain about America again? No way!

Back on topic, the Passat is not the North American Car of the Year. And anybody who follows the award for more than one year knows that it is about as comical as VW saying that the new Jetta and Passat interiors are just as nice as the old ones. Like when they gave the award to the Saturn Aura a few years ago.

The TDIs are more reliable than other VWs but they are still far away from the Toyota hybrids. I get the feeling you're looking for a car for more than 5 years. I would not want to be stuck with a Volkswagen out of warranty, not even a TDI.

My point is that if you're considering a TDI Passat, make sure to test drive a Camry Hybrid. Can't hurt :)

Monkeyrench, thank you for that, exactly the type of information I'm looking for, especially the real world mileage numbers for a non-Eco Cruze.

BDC, I'm not a fan of hybrid technology for a number of reasons, but let's just say that the production of the hybrid components off sets the environmental advantages of the reduced fuel economy, they are expensive to work on, and the initial capital cost is high enough that it is almost impossible to recoupe it in mileage benefits in my case and use cycle.

DieselDub, if it wasn't for my 3 kids I'd definately go with the Sportwagen, it is a better fit for my lifestyle and activites, but it is significantly more narrow than the Passat for the rear seat and my kids won't fit.

Draigflag, the US EPA and particularly the California AQMD are far from interested in reducing emmissions, they are more concerned with Political Correctness and benefit for certain manufacturers. Why did the first generation Prius's get the HOV lane stickers when the VW diesels, Minicooper, and several other vehicles with better real world mileage numbers not? Plain and simple, there were bribes involved, the CAFE standards were manipulated to give advantage to some while punishing others. Why isn't the Chevy Volt now eligible for the HOV Sticker without the "Fuel Efficiency" option in spite of being an electric vehicle with an onboard gasoline generator? The same reasons. Don't try to inject logic or reason into US Governmental regulations, never the two shall meet. Yes, you're absolutely correct, that commercial vehicles have yet another standard. They've outlawed 2 stroke motorcycles with 100 plus mpg ratings but allow exotics from Europe that can't get 8 mpg for the same reasons. Apparently the motorcycle lobby isn't as strong as that of the rich and powerful who want to drive around in Phalyic Symbols to make up for their own inadequcies.

Cinderbarrel, agreed but remember that the Audi and some of the BMW's are using the VW TDI for regulation compliance reasons. Mercedes Benz has been in the Diesel market for decades, but they've greatly scaled back their diesel offerings due to increasingly more complex emmissions standards. The only market that seems to continue is the heavy duty trucks, and even there the big 3 seem to only offer a diesel option on the 1 ton and heavier trucks in their model lines. I've been looking for a tow vehicle for a boat and need a heavy duty truck to tow it with but can't come anywhere near affording an F-450 or 550, not to mention that I can't use it for much of anything else other than towing which makes them very unappealing.

1) Trucks are treated entirely seperately to cars in the US market. They have significantly relaxed emissions, safety & fuel efficiency requirements.

2) SUV & pickups are counted as trucks, not cars...

Much of the popularity of SUVs was due to bypassing the safety & fuel efficiency requirements expected of passenger cars.

None of this helps to let in a European style diesel supermini into the US market.

Draigflag
Jul 17, 2012
9:19 AM

Ok I think I get it now. I just gets up my nose when people dont realise the strikingly obvious fact that a car that uses almost 1000% less fuel would somehow emit more pollutants. I might have guessed there were more political reasons behind it.

@BDC, dont you think if I were going to complain about America, id chose somthing actually worth complainig about other than fuel economy? Cmon

Monnoracing
Aug 3, 2012
5:48 PM

There is always the Honda civic VX from 92 to 95. It gets 60mpg no problems

OP, All of my cars have been stick shift.
My audi was a 5 speed manual and Cruze is 6 speed manual.

The difference between a 1996 Audi A6 manual transmisson and 2012 Cruze is light years apart. I've only owned sticks, and have had 3 sedans, 1 coupe, one pickup, and one SUV. Even my trucks shifted smoother than the Cruze.

Typing on my phone, didn't mean to "submit". I mentioned my other vehicles to say that I have driven a variety of sticks and the Audi blows them all out of the water. Perhaps I'm tainted against the Cruze because I just got out of the Audi or maybe because the Cruze is my first 6-speed, or maybe because the Cruze Eco has 3 (THREE?!) overdrive gears (4, 5, &6). Or maybe a mix of all three reasons.

I don't feather the clutch much unless I'm notpaying attention to RPM's. I've matched RPM's for my shifts for a long time (a fun party trick of mine for passengers was to shift w/o using clutch in my pickup). I know it uses more gas so I'm trying tto break the habit.

All-in-all, I think it's fair to say I've got some experience with sticks and I just don't like the Cruze's.

Also, not quite 20,000 miles on Cruze, and I definately noticed the better MPG after the weather got warmer (even with a mild winter), dunno what the miles were, but all my tanks are logged if you're interested.

I have the '12 VW Passat 6M and I encountered the same problem with locating one. I ended up ordering it direct from the factory, because quite frankly, the dealers aren't discounting them much and I didn't want the silver color, which seemed to be the only color on the lot if they did have a man trans. It took about 2 months to get delivered.

I'm very happy with the car. The interior space is nice, it fits 3 6ft plus men in nicely (plus me driving), with loads of legroom in the backseat, and a decent sized trunk. Mpgs at 70 - 75 mph mostly highway has been around 40 and I'm told that will get better with time and getting me used to the shifting. For me, the big selling factor is that I enjoy driving a stick shift and I love the size of the car as well as the mpg.

Its a boring looking car IMHO, but at least its not a tiny little thing. I wish the trim lines could be selected with the stick, I would like the sunroof option and the faux wood interior trim.

I repeat, I'm very happy with the car so far. 1800 miles, 2 months. Time will tell the rest.