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Old 02-01-2007, 01:08 PM   #21
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If I don't use it the mileage goes down. Odometer is off but the readings are corrected to the gps calibrated scangauge. Look at my gas log. Not much driving style changes can be made - I drive the same roads the same speeds - coast down the same hills etc. that I have driven for over 20 years. The only variation is the number of red lights I might hit on any particular run and even then I had a 45mpg run.
I guess I'm not seeing it. You had a tank of 39.29 with acetone then 37.91 without and then a 36.53 with.

Those are impressive number with the xb though.
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Old 02-01-2007, 01:35 PM   #22
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You have it off by one filling . . . the acetone didn't go in the tank before the one when I filled it that was 36.53 and the low mileage for those tanks was all high speed driving on Maine roads with heavy cross winds in cold weather.
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Old 02-03-2007, 02:45 PM   #23
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I actually done extensive work on this. I even have friends who are chemists. They don't know **** about engines but they all told me that stuff will **** with aluminum real quick.

It's a good thing that I didn't install this device on any of my cars.
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Old 02-03-2007, 06:13 PM   #24
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The story on hydrogen injection as I understand it is that it's not junk science, but that it isn't effective on our engines as they are built. Hydrogen in small quantities does modify the combustion event but the engine needs to be designed to take advantage of it. The main thing is that combustion is **much** more stable, even with a leaner mixture. That means a LAF and an ECU to match as a minimum. The good news is that it's OK from an emissions standpoint because NOX production is minimized by the presence of hydrogen.

The take home message is that I think you **might** be able to make this work, but it's going to be a long road to take it to completion. Incidentally, does this unit sequester the oxygen or does it just dump the oxygen in to the intake with the hydrogen? My gut feeling is that hydrogen alone would be better than a hydrogen/oxygen mix because it might use up enough atmospheric oxygen to trick the ECU into a minimal injection decrease as long as it is running closed-loop.
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Old 02-03-2007, 07:04 PM   #25
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I am thinking that it need to inject after the air flow sensor assuming you don't have a MAP sensor. The reason being that you want to measure the air coming into the engine just like before and add the Hydrogen and Oxygen mixture so as to not offset the combustion air fuel ratio.
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Old 02-03-2007, 10:05 PM   #26
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JanGeo-

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I am thinking that it need to inject after the air flow sensor assuming you don't have a MAP sensor. The reason being that you want to measure the air coming into the engine just like before and add the Hydrogen and Oxygen mixture so as to not offset the combustion air fuel ratio.
There are multiple sensor modification options with this gizmo that encourage lean-burn states. One of them is to modify the MAP sensor input with a potentiometer. That is probably the one I will go with because that was his most successful mod.

Without the sensor mods, it is very possible (likely?) that my FE will decrease. But I want to try one mod at a time for my own evaluation.

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Old 02-03-2007, 10:52 PM   #27
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The story on hydrogen injection as I understand it is that it's not junk science, but that it isn't effective on our engines as they are built. Hydrogen in small quantities does modify the combustion event but the engine needs to be designed to take advantage of it. The main thing is that combustion is **much** more stable, even with a leaner mixture. That means a LAF and an ECU to match as a minimum. The good news is that it's OK from an emissions standpoint because NOX production is minimized by the presence of hydrogen.
Yes, everything you wrote is what I have gleaned as well. Similar products are being sold to Diesel Mac trucks as bolt-on equipment, either using distilled water or a little bit of the diesel fuel to generate the hydrogen. From what I gather, the higher-compression diesel is more hydrogen friendly becuase it is already a lean-burn engine. Also, the diesel runs cleaner.

I asked the inventor specifically about emissions because I want a system that works and is also California emissions compliant. In his emission results, when his system is running at a normal 14.7 Air/Fuel ratio, he gets higher NOx. However, when the A/F ratio is above 18 (another aspect of the system), the NOx goes to normal or below. His benchmark is the car's normal NOx output of 50-800 PPM. Also, above 14.7, the CO and HC emissions are great.

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The take home message is that I think you **might** be able to make this work, but it's going to be a long road to take it to completion. Incidentally, does this unit sequester the oxygen or does it just dump the oxygen in to the intake with the hydrogen? My gut feeling is that hydrogen alone would be better than a hydrogen/oxygen mix because it might use up enough atmospheric oxygen to trick the ECU into a minimal injection decrease as long as it is running closed-loop.
The unit does not sequester the oxygen. It's an electrolysis thingy with electrolyte + distilled water + electricity.

Again I agree that the magic word is **might**. The inventor is much more adventureous than I am. He knows what he is doing. All the information is there, so the road could be shorter if I had more time. But, I am super duper cautious and I don't want to install something until I understand how it works (I always have to do alot of homework after reading his explanations).

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Old 02-03-2007, 11:06 PM   #28
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I will be following your results closely
On your hot-air intake, can you tell me what your optimum IAT readings are for lean-burn? Have you been able to determine the Air/Fuel ratios you are running at? Before I attempt the inventor's sensor mods, I would like to see if I can use a more "natural lean-burn" method (the kind Saturns love).

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Old 02-04-2007, 04:22 AM   #29
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you should see mpg increase without mods to map if it really helps combustion. Leaning the a/f ratio will definately help the mpg go up but emmisions will be an issue - nox combined with h2o makes nitric acid which you want to avoid.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:51 AM   #30
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I asked the inventor specifically about emissions because I want a system that works and is also California emissions compliant. In his emission results, when his system is running at a normal 14.7 Air/Fuel ratio, he gets higher NOx. However, when the A/F ratio is above 18 (another aspect of the system), the NOx goes to normal or below. His benchmark is the car's normal NOx output of 50-800 PPM. Also, above 14.7, the CO and HC emissions are great.
An increase in NOx emissions at a roughly stoichiometric ratio kind of surprises me. We did cold start testing in a university lab with big-$$$ exhaust gas analyzers and the reduction in NOx was pretty darned big. There are obvious differences between what we did and what he's doing, though. We had perfectly controlled lab conditions, our fuel was gasoline-like but not precisely gasoline, and our hydrogen went directly into the manifold from a bottle. I'm going to have to think about that one.
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