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Old 08-18-2007, 11:54 AM   #41
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100 mile per gallon engine!

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Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
I hate to be the one to tell you this Carlos... the energy required to extract the hydrogen is greater than the energy recovered. Neither the extractor or the engine are %100 efficient.
I just read an article about a 100 mpg carburetor http://www.gofastnews.com/board/tech...lly-exist.html by David Vizard.
What he is saying is that the fuel system is already capable of better than a 100 mpg but the thermal efficiency of the engine is not.
So regardless of what we do with induction systems, fuel injection or carb, o2 sensor, aero mods, hot air intakes or anything else we will still be limited by the thermal efficiency of the machine burning the fuel,
So it?s back to the drawing board to look ate the fuel burner not the fuel supplier so ma be we need to push engine manufactures as much as oil and gas suppliers.
So wouldn't this be the same type of issue regarless of fuel type?
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:21 PM   #42
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How'd you make out with this since Feb? Any updates?

You're right, the O2 sensor mod is probably to take care of the fact that more O2 is being used in the burn. Having a modded O2 sensor is good anyway since it will let you control the target AFR that the ECU will shoot for. What you need is something like the FeverBuster listed here: http://www.brightgreen.us/products/ I've thought about building one myself but haven't gotten to it yet, I can definately see a purpose for it.

How's this 'device' work, do you get access to the internals or electrodes at all? If so you could install a hole or pipe above the positive terminal and vent that to atmosphere. Depending on where and how it collects the electrolysis results and sends them to the engine this may work, or may just defeat the whole purpose. Basically what you want is a collector right above the negative terminal since that's where the hyrdrogen will be and ignore anything above the positive terminal since this will be oxygen. I suppose you could make your own canister without a barrier extending into the liquid to seal off the two terminals.

What's your mixture by the way? And does the device control or meter the output at all or is it directly hooked to the electrical system?

You're making me want to experiment with this again. I read something and figured I'd try it (since it cost like $20 in materials) myself on my car then ('88 Caprice 9C1 that got 8-9MPG). I just made a sulfuric acid/water mixture/bath and hooked electric from the battery to the terminals and it started producing. I didn't have any circuits or limiters in the middle so regardless of how much you reduce the load on your system other ways (like lighting) the electrolysis device would still draw as much energy as possible (there is no 'max draw' it will just draw all available and produce faster).

Of course I had one output (that is the hydrogen and the oxygen) and put them both to the carb so I didn't get good results. My results were actually worse MPG, probably due to the fact that the electrical load was taxing the car the whole time (you could hear the idle noticibly increase with the load of this device). If I did it again I'd try pure hydrogen and use a potentiometer or other way to control the output reaction and load on my car to see if it actually helps. Electrolysis is really inefficient though, it draws too much and procuces too little so it all depends on how much is required to help the burn and lessen the Nox (really noble if this works since Nox is the achilies heel of any lean burning).
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:02 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by itjstagame View Post
How'd you make out with this since Feb? Any updates?
I've had no luck getting it to work as claimed, but I haven't implemented "the whole enchilada" either.

Quote:

You're right, the O2 sensor mod is probably to take care of the fact that more O2 is being used in the burn. Having a modded O2 sensor is good anyway since it will let you control the target AFR that the ECU will shoot for. What you need is something like the FeverBuster listed here: http://www.brightgreen.us/products/ I've thought about building one myself but haven't gotten to it yet, I can definately see a purpose for it.
As of today I have got the EFIE (FeverBuster equivalent) from eagle-research online. I am trying calibrate it for a modest ~15.5 AFR as we speak.

The system also recommends modifying the MAP/MAF sensor. I have not done that. Modifying the sensor is probably how the system bypasses omgwtfbyobbq's recommendation to attach the H2 / 02 inlet flow post MAP/MAF. Here is how the inlet flow is currently configured :

Attachment 860

I noticed in the brightgreen URL a fuel heater. My "total system" comes with a fuel heater too, but I haven't installed it because my mechanic was wary of it. Also, since it is a passive fuel heater, I am worried about vapor lock. In an ideal world, I would want a fuel heater that I can "open and close" in such a way as to modify the temperature to which the fuel heats up.

Quote:
How's this 'device' work, do you get access to the internals or electrodes at all? If so you could install a hole or pipe above the positive terminal and vent that to atmosphere. Depending on where and how it collects the electrolysis results and sends them to the engine this may work, or may just defeat the whole purpose. Basically what you want is a collector right above the negative terminal since that's where the hyrdrogen will be and ignore anything above the positive terminal since this will be oxygen. I suppose you could make your own canister without a barrier extending into the liquid to seal off the two terminals.
The negative terminal is the metal outside of the hydrogen generator, which is then grounded to the chassis. Here is a picture that may be helpful :

Attachment 859

Quote:
What's your mixture by the way?
It's a "proprietary secret sauce" that the hydrogen-boost dude provides. It is probably similar to the other hydrogen mixes.

Quote:
And does the device control or meter the output at all or is it directly hooked to the electrical system?
You "infer" the performance based on the amperage draw. It comes with a little ammeter. One problem I have is that with my installation, I don't have good access to the hydrogen generator, so it is difficult to observe/maintain the chemical balance.

When I was a kid, my Dad would use a large "battery dropper" thingy to extract the battery acid. It had measurements on it to help you diagnose the voltage health of the battery. In this way he could check the battery. I keep thinking that I need something similar. That is to say, extract some of the mix of electrolyte water to test. However, I don't think of it as a correct analogy, because the water in the booster does not have energy in it like a battery does (right?!?!?!?).

I really want a foolproof way to assess the mixture/health of the electrolyte water.

Quote:
You're making me want to experiment with this again. I read something and figured I'd try it (since it cost like $20 in materials) myself on my car then ('88 Caprice 9C1 that got 8-9MPG). I just made a sulfuric acid/water mixture/bath and hooked electric from the battery to the terminals and it started producing. I didn't have any circuits or limiters in the middle so regardless of how much you reduce the load on your system other ways (like lighting) the electrolysis device would still draw as much energy as possible (there is no 'max draw' it will just draw all available and produce faster).

Of course I had one output (that is the hydrogen and the oxygen) and put them both to the carb so I didn't get good results. My results were actually worse MPG, probably due to the fact that the electrical load was taxing the car the whole time (you could hear the idle noticibly increase with the load of this device). If I did it again I'd try pure hydrogen and use a potentiometer or other way to control the output reaction and load on my car to see if it actually helps. Electrolysis is really inefficient though, it draws too much and procuces too little so it all depends on how much is required to help the burn and lessen the Nox (really noble if this works since Nox is the achilies heel of any lean burning).
Right now I am seeing between 20 and 30 Amps being drawn. I gained at least 5 Amps by disabling my DRLs, but I should do other things to try to offset the draw. Maybe this is a good excuse to switch to LEDs where possible.

Let me get back to you on the increase in load. I will stare at my scangauge for the change in the LOD parameter.

CarloSW2
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:41 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by rookie View Post
I just read an article about a 100 mpg carburetor http://www.gofastnews.com/board/tech...lly-exist.html by David Vizard.
What he is saying is that the fuel system is already capable of better than a 100 mpg but the thermal efficiency of the engine is not.
So regardless of what we do with induction systems, fuel injection or carb, o2 sensor, aero mods, hot air intakes or anything else we will still be limited by the thermal efficiency of the machine burning the fuel,
So it?s back to the drawing board to look ate the fuel burner not the fuel supplier so ma be we need to push engine manufactures as much as oil and gas suppliers.
So wouldn't this be the same type of issue regarless of fuel type?
When you say fuel type, I assume you mean "mostly gas + a little bit of hydrogen as a catalyst". I don't really have a good answer for you.

My personal agenda in all of this is working with what I have. I have a "retrofit" mindset. That is to say, I want to try to test what can be done to make a normal ICE engine perform better. The reason I want to do this is because a new engine design will take years if not decades to "cut-in" to the existing world of vehicle drivetrains out there. If I can increase my MPG without hurting emissions, then that's a win. If I can maintain MPG and decrease emissions, then that's also a win.

I keep waiting for the next big thing in ICE engine technology, but I haven't seen one yet that ever gets out of the lab. When I look out in the world, I only see 3 types of ICE engines, gasoline, diesel, and rotary (the Mazda RX# sports car).

From your POV, from an ICE-only perspective, what engine "out there" holds hope for the best thermal efficiency?

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Old 08-21-2007, 05:31 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
From your POV, from an ICE-only perspective, what engine "out there" holds hope for the best thermal efficiency?
Most definitely a Diesel. The modern diesel is far more efficient than the modern conventional gas ICE.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:08 AM   #46
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Any updates on this since August?
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:59 PM   #47
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This is one of the most open and honest assessments that I've found on this technology: http://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html

I just noticed that this guy is also a member here. The car he is using as a test bed, however, is a lot different from what most of us drive. Still, maybe this info will help you in some way.
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Old 06-07-2008, 11:07 PM   #48
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So why is it giving me the unheard of mileage in my Scion xB? Other xB owners are getting low 30's on the highway and I get low 30's going up hills on the highway - 45mpg on typical trips and as high as 50mpg. They fail to test it under the condition where it helps the most - light throttle use!
Where is your unit mounted? I just bought a two cell and bubbler from March-Labs but can't find anywhere practical to mount it under the hood where I could fill and clean it easily. I am thinking of putting it in the little trunk space but would rather not run it so far from the engine area. Do you have any pictures?
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Old 06-08-2008, 08:58 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by JV-Tuga View Post
This is one of the most open and honest assessments that I've found on this technology: http://flapdoodledinghy.com/HHO_generator.html

I just noticed that this guy is also a member here. The car he is using as a test bed, however, is a lot different from what most of us drive. Still, maybe this info will help you in some way.
From what I can see of his setup, it was well thought out for plumbing and such, but the actual meat, the HHO generation part, seems very weak, I'm seeming to get figures of only about 0.6L a minute output for the big 12 cell pack, based on his bubble output observations for the single cell. I'd put this down to having very little plate area, and an apparent unwillingness to have a very high concentration of baking soda in there. The large proportion of electrolyte to plate area also probably made for more of a thermal "load" or "sink" that didn't help for startup efficiency, and overpowering the thing to get reasonable output out of the small plates and weak electrolyte seems to been the cause of too much thermal waste, necessitating aggressive heat removal measures. So I'm kinda not surprised he's finding better results with water injection now.
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Old 06-09-2008, 03:27 PM   #50
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One of my local news stations just ran a story on a man in the Charlotte, NC area last week that had put a HHO generator on his Honda and boosted MPG from around 35 to around 70. This man was a retired mechanical engineer.
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