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Old 01-20-2011, 06:23 PM   #41
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

So, good conclusion so far-
Best trip on record since getting the mpguino: 35 miles, 2/3rds of that was interstate. 65.5mpg on the way there trip average. 63.3mpg on the way back 2 hours later. This includes lights on and warm up.
I'm impressed! We'll see what other trips not on the highway bring. (not to mention carrying my heavier load of drum) Thanks all for the input. It looks like either bad ground on the 02 or fuel filter (or both) were at fault.

B
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:45 PM   #42
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

Nice Work!!!

What was the temperature out side?
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:17 PM   #43
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

Twas about 30df on the way down, 28ish on the way back. I used the block heater for the trip down too.

I was doing some around town hypermiling to the extreme and plenty of EOC tonight, and achieved 61mpg at about 11df and a block heater warm up. Two stops on that trip too.

In my spare time, I deleted the antenna for an internal one (stock one was no longer getting NPR!) and fabricated/put on two coroplast wheel covers for the front. We'll see what the mountain drive I have to take tomorrow brings!

I'm psyched to see what next tank might look like. If I can break 60mpg during January each tank, I'd be stoked.
Thanks again for all the info.
I'm going to continue my pursuit of grounds. I may take the time to take photos of all the grounds I find and document them so people can benefit from re-doing their grounds.

Oh, and one other thing-

To Erik's point: it is very possible I'll have to readjust my mpguino after this. Now that more fuel is making it through those injectors, it will likely mean slightly higher consumption. However, I do think that if the motor was running more lean than it had ought to be, it wasn't at peak efficiency. A slightly richer mix means less throttle is needed, theoretically. Additionally, it means I can hold lean burn a little longer, which would definitely reduce consumption overall. I notice that now there are several hills I can climb in 5th that I couldn't before without slowing down 10mph. Now I'm only down 5mph-7mph. It sounds insignificant, but I don't believe it so.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:50 PM   #44
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by benfrogg View Post

I'm psyched to see what next tank might look like. If I can break 60mpg during January each tank, I'd be stoked.
Thanks again for all the info.
I'm going to continue my pursuit of grounds. I may take the time to take photos of all the grounds I find and document them so people can benefit from re-doing their grounds.
I would be too! 60mpg is pretty incredible in such cold temperatures.. Also, one thing if I would try working on if I were you is to find a way to kill the engine without keying off the ignition, that way your MPGUINO and odometer continue to count mileage while the engine is off. I haven't done this yet nor anyone I know has either but I think a good momentary switch to interrupt something like the crank position sensor or other critical sensor would be an easy way to kill the engine. I heard 92-95 D series don't have a crank position sensor so I'd have to do a little more reading in trying to figure out what would be a simple sensor to temporarily disconnect that would instantly kill the engine. Maybe the circuit for the ECU? I dunno..
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:13 PM   #45
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

I installed an on off non momentary switch next to the radio. It turns the main relay on and off. Yes, the heartbeat it takes the motor to die and me to turn the switch back on are miles not being accounted for. However, I estimate this is only a few miles per tank given how fast I can make it all happen. The speedo needle doesn't usually make it all the way to zero before I turn the switch back on. The mpguino stays on the whole time, although it doesn't read miles for the brief second the switch is off.
I tried a switch at the ECU fuse first. It sputtered before dying and I didn't like that.
The main relay kills the injectors, ignition, fuel pump, and a host of other things all at the same time. When I turn the switch back on, the fuel pump repressurises the system for the clutch restart.
Super slick, definitely the way to go.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:13 AM   #46
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by benfrogg View Post
I installed an on off non momentary switch next to the radio. It turns the main relay on and off. Yes, the heartbeat it takes the motor to die and me to turn the switch back on are miles not being accounted for. However, I estimate this is only a few miles per tank given how fast I can make it all happen. The speedo needle doesn't usually make it all the way to zero before I turn the switch back on. The mpguino stays on the whole time, although it doesn't read miles for the brief second the switch is off.
I tried a switch at the ECU fuse first. It sputtered before dying and I didn't like that.
The main relay kills the injectors, ignition, fuel pump, and a host of other things all at the same time. When I turn the switch back on, the fuel pump repressurises the system for the clutch restart.
Super slick, definitely the way to go.
B
I think the reason why the fuse at the ECU caused the sputtering is because the ECU has capacitors and therefore was still powered for some time after you cut off the power to the ECU. I was thinking that if there was something that you could get the ECU to think that would make it think "oh ****, I turn off NOW!" that it would work quicker. I believe the crank position sensor being one of them and in the case of civics, it's not on the block but integrated into the distributor. There are three "critical" sensors integrated into the distributor which sends information the ECU needs in order to operate. The helms manual either doesn't go into detail about what the sensors do or I just haven't found it yet. One reason to try this approach to killing the engine is that apparently On-OFF cycles are murder on discrete electronics and since cars aren't intended to be on-off so frequently like that, supposedly you could prematurely kill the capacitors and or discrete electronics in the ECU and maybe elsewhere in the car as startup happens to be very hard on electronics.

I plan to go this route but not until I get everything else squared away cause right now I've already got electrical issues to deal with as my cruise control doesn't work and I don't know what exactly has been "jerry rigged" electrically speaking in my car.


Oh btw, what did the MPGuino say for the MPG during steady state cruising? Cause didn't you say it would only say like 52mpg during steady state cruising before?
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Old 01-21-2011, 04:35 AM   #47
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

^I don't know about older Hondas but in modern GMs a disconnected or failed crank position sensor does not make the engine fail to run, it just runs really terrible and may stall. It may fail to start.

I wouldn't want to mess with sensors for a kill switch. That would throw a code every time, and could leave the computer still trying to push fuel to make it run. Why not just cut off power to the fuel injectors? That should cause a stall without throwing a code, and makes 100% sure that when you don't want it to get fuel it's not getting fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benfrogg View Post
I do think that if the motor was running more lean than it had ought to be, it wasn't at peak efficiency. A slightly richer mix means less throttle is needed, theoretically.
I agree with your conclusion but not your logic. Why would less throttle mean anything?

If the mix was too lean then it wouldn't burn efficiently; in that case, going richer and making it burn more efficiently is both the means and the end. Throttle just restricts (or doesn't restrict) air; less throttle merely restricts the air more.
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:18 AM   #48
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by benfrogg View Post
Twas about 30df on the way down, 28ish on the way back. I used the block heater for the trip down too.

I was doing some around town hypermiling to the extreme and plenty of EOC tonight, and achieved 61mpg at about 11df and a block heater warm up. Two stops on that trip too.

In my spare time, I deleted the antenna for an internal one (stock one was no longer getting NPR!) and fabricated/put on two coroplast wheel covers for the front. We'll see what the mountain drive I have to take tomorrow brings!

I'm psyched to see what next tank might look like. If I can break 60mpg during January each tank, I'd be stoked.
Thanks again for all the info.
I'm going to continue my pursuit of grounds. I may take the time to take photos of all the grounds I find and document them so people can benefit from re-doing their grounds.

Oh, and one other thing-

To Erik's point: it is very possible I'll have to readjust my mpguino after this. Now that more fuel is making it through those injectors, it will likely mean slightly higher consumption. However, I do think that if the motor was running more lean than it had ought to be, it wasn't at peak efficiency. A slightly richer mix means less throttle is needed, theoretically. Additionally, it means I can hold lean burn a little longer, which would definitely reduce consumption overall. I notice that now there are several hills I can climb in 5th that I couldn't before without slowing down 10mph. Now I'm only down 5mph-7mph. It sounds insignificant, but I don't believe it so.
B
It will be interesting to see what the outcome is after you readjust the mpguino. Your fuel mileage at those temps is very impressive. Even with all your areo mods.
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Old 01-23-2011, 08:51 AM   #49
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

*************-
Steady state flat ground cruising at 55-60mph is 65mpg at -6degrees f. It is more like 75mpg steady state at 30df. It is very noticeably less when it is very cold. A long trip in the cold (-6) last night only netted me 57.5mpg for the trip.

HC-
I agree with you about throttle position for most every vehicle on the road. However, with this VX, even minute changes in throttle opening mean large changes in instant mpg. For example, most small hills I can climb in fifth gear. At half throttle (or a little under, I can maintain lean burn) and my mpg display goes down as low as 45mpg. As soon as I lose lean burn, it drops to 24mpg or so. That's at just over half throttle. 3/4 throttle is about 14mpg, WOT is single digits. Like 6-7mpg. So, yes, in theory more throttle will lower pumping losses, but the VX seems to be very sensitive to throttle position care of the TPS.

Pgfpro-
Still no numbers on accuracy yet. I filled up at near empty on a different pump than my normal one and got 62mpg for the tank. It was a short fill, for certain. Warm fuel throws the numbers way off.
A short drive home (140miles) netted only 42mpg. It was driving through heavy snow the whole trip. I really couldn't drive for FE. Considering that, my average was closer to 54 when you average all the miles together. That's not bad since the snow driving trip netted 52 on the gauge.
I'll have some more accurrate numbers in the fuel log in the coming weeks.

B
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:25 AM   #50
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Re: VTEC-E question, help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by benfrogg View Post
*************-
Steady state flat ground cruising at 55-60mph is 65mpg at -6degrees f. It is more like 75mpg steady state at 30df. It is very noticeably less when it is very cold. A long trip in the cold (-6) last night only netted me 57.5mpg for the trip.

HC-
I agree with you about throttle position for most every vehicle on the road. However, with this VX, even minute changes in throttle opening mean large changes in instant mpg. For example, most small hills I can climb in fifth gear. At half throttle (or a little under, I can maintain lean burn) and my mpg display goes down as low as 45mpg. As soon as I lose lean burn, it drops to 24mpg or so. That's at just over half throttle. 3/4 throttle is about 14mpg, WOT is single digits. Like 6-7mpg. So, yes, in theory more throttle will lower pumping losses, but the VX seems to be very sensitive to throttle position care of the TPS.

Pgfpro-
Still no numbers on accuracy yet. I filled up at near empty on a different pump than my normal one and got 62mpg for the tank. It was a short fill, for certain. Warm fuel throws the numbers way off.
A short drive home (140miles) netted only 42mpg. It was driving through heavy snow the whole trip. I really couldn't drive for FE. Considering that, my average was closer to 54 when you average all the miles together. That's not bad since the snow driving trip netted 52 on the gauge.
I'll have some more accurrate numbers in the fuel log in the coming weeks.

B
Yes the Coefficients of Expansion of Gasoline at 20*C (950 x 10-6) can cause havoc for measuring mpg.
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