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Old 03-23-2009, 03:48 AM   #71
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It occurs to me there may be some misunderstadings going on between the con/pro camps.

If your goal as a designer is to trade max hp for mpg, a WAI is a dumb way to go. The better option is to stick a smaller engine in the vehicle. My calling WAI a "wacky" method didn't really express this properly.

Also, the argument that the sort of driving that hypermilers do may not be optimized for is fairly persuasive to me. One need not look further than the tire inflation specs to find evidence of where the sales priorities lie.

Assuming that a valve design that has bad flow resistance at low flow rates is the culprit (and that's not 100% certain), why would they not change the design? The aforementioned not testing that regime extensively is one, economic considerations of manufacture are another. There is another possibility. Now, this last one could get me in trouble with my fellow engineers, but don't assume the designers considered every possible implication of their designs. I went to school with some engineers who were definitely mediocre. There's a bias among many to credit professionals with a minimum level of proficiency that may not be warranted industry wide. The effect is very pronounced among doctors. I've known too many med students! In fact I recently discovered my freshman year roommate wound up in medicine. Yikes. The flaw may simply have slipped through, not being flushed out by a testing process aiming at different goals. Of course some cars may not have the flaw. That would make testing results variable.

None of this proves WAI definitively works of course.
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Main Entry: co de pen dence - see codependency
co de pen den cy
Pronunciation: \kō-di-ˈpen-dən(t)-sē\
Function: noun
Date: 1979

: a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin) ; broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another
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Old 03-23-2009, 04:46 AM   #72
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The time a WAI will help fuel economy is in colder weather while the engine is warming up. But it's not because the engine is getting warm air instead of cold air, it's because the engine is getting up to operation temp quicker. Once the car is up to operating temp the WAI is no longer helping. The fuel savings is not from a WAI but from a engine that gets up to operating temp sooner. This is why test results show little improvement and vary greatly with different cars. A car that warms up quickly on it's own will show little improvement with a WAI but a car that takes a long time to warm up normally will show greater improvement with a WAI.

This is the reason why older carbureted cars of the 70's and 80's had factory installed, vacuum controlled warm air systems. When the engine was cold, a flap in the air cleaner lid closed to block the cold air inlet and pull air in off the outside of the exhaust manifolds. As the engine warmed the valve would open to allow in colder air and block of the hot air. Another reason for this is that carbureted engines don't atomize the fuel that well. The hotter air helped with fuel atomization however, this is not a problem in modern cars with fuel injection.

Again, best fuel economy comes from a fully warmed up engine (warm coolant and warm oil), not warm intake air. You want a good idea for better economy? Install an intake system that pulls in warm air during startup when the engine is below operating temp but switches to cold air when the engine is fully warm. Another good idea: install an engine block heater and an oil pan heater to keep the coolant and oil temp warm when the engine is not running.
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:35 AM   #73
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My mechanic thinks WAI is bunk too (well, he could see it at cold temps), FYI. He was making fun of me for removing my passenger side mirror too.
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Main Entry: co de pen dence - see codependency
co de pen den cy
Pronunciation: \kō-di-ˈpen-dən(t)-sē\
Function: noun
Date: 1979

: a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin) ; broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:47 AM   #74
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I tried folding the mirrors in on my truck on a long trip once. I didn't notice any difference in mileage.

-Jay
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Old 03-23-2009, 05:50 AM   #75
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I thought about folding them! Mine have such a squared off shape when I do that I wasn't encouraged particularly. I've decided to run for a bit without it in and see if any difference is really noticeable. One mirror is a bit of a geek badge of honor, though.
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Main Entry: co de pen dence - see codependency
co de pen den cy
Pronunciation: \kō-di-ˈpen-dən(t)-sē\
Function: noun
Date: 1979

: a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin) ; broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another
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Old 03-23-2009, 06:58 AM   #76
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Either that, or someone might think that you drove home drunk one night and broke it off...

-Jay
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Old 03-23-2009, 07:21 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by NovaResource View Post
The time a WAI will help fuel economy is in colder weather while the engine is warming up. But it's not because the engine is getting warm air instead of cold air, it's because the engine is getting up to operation temp quicker. Once the car is up to operating temp the WAI is no longer helping. The fuel savings is not from a WAI but from a engine that gets up to operating temp sooner. This is why test results show little improvement and vary greatly with different cars. A car that warms up quickly on it's own will show little improvement with a WAI but a car that takes a long time to warm up normally will show greater improvement with a WAI.

This is the reason why older carbureted cars of the 70's and 80's had factory installed, vacuum controlled warm air systems. When the engine was cold, a flap in the air cleaner lid closed to block the cold air inlet and pull air in off the outside of the exhaust manifolds. As the engine warmed the valve would open to allow in colder air and block of the hot air. Another reason for this is that carbureted engines don't atomize the fuel that well. The hotter air helped with fuel atomization however, this is not a problem in modern cars with fuel injection.

Again, best fuel economy comes from a fully warmed up engine (warm coolant and warm oil), not warm intake air. You want a good idea for better economy? Install an intake system that pulls in warm air during startup when the engine is below operating temp but switches to cold air when the engine is fully warm. Another good idea: install an engine block heater and an oil pan heater to keep the coolant and oil temp warm when the engine is not running.

Why not conduct an experiment and try things instead of saying everyone is wrong. I try things that is why I'm getting 40+% over EPA ratings
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Old 03-23-2009, 07:28 AM   #78
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Either that, or someone might think that you drove home drunk one night and broke it off...
Very good! That's why you need a professional looking cover plate.
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Main Entry: co de pen dence - see codependency
co de pen den cy
Pronunciation: \kō-di-ˈpen-dən(t)-sē\
Function: noun
Date: 1979

: a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin) ; broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another
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Old 03-23-2009, 08:17 AM   #79
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Why not conduct an experiment and try things instead of saying everyone is wrong.
Because trying something that you know won't work (and has been proven not to work by others) is a waste of time. If you would like to prove me wrong, be my guest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philip1 View Post
I try things that is why I'm getting 40+% over EPA ratings
Did you get a metal for that accomplishment? When you get to 100% over the EPA let me know. Until then, here's a cookie for you.

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Old 03-23-2009, 08:19 AM   #80
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Until then, here's a cookie for you.
My browser blocks cookies.
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Main Entry: co de pen dence - see codependency
co de pen den cy
Pronunciation: \kō-di-ˈpen-dən(t)-sē\
Function: noun
Date: 1979

: a psychological condition or a relationship in which a person is controlled or manipulated by another who is affected with a pathological condition (as an addiction to alcohol or heroin) ; broadly : dependence on the needs of or control by another
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