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Old 08-09-2007, 01:28 PM   #21
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I had a great big tirade all set up for y'all...but an errant click deleted it for me, instead of posting. Bad for me, probably good for you.

Here's the basics: The point you brought up, milesgallon.com: Sometimes it's not cost effective to change from an SUV to another vehicle. Once you factor in all of the costs related, in some cases, there is a long time to the break-even point.

With all the finger-pointing going on with this topic...I'm surprised nobody's looked at the fast-food industry yet.......
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:10 PM   #22
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Anything that is non-renewable is not going to make it in the long run. Oil heating is certainly not going to cut it, neither is electricity from coal. My house is heated by a renewable byproduct... wood pellets! Not only is it pure renewable wood (I wish it could be sustainably harvested but who knows - at least it's a possibility) with no additives, it is a recycled product from a local furniture manufacturer 20 miles away. I hear it's the cheapest form of heating around. And pellets are better than wood logs because the stoves can burn it much more efficiently (the best of any burning process) and it's all on a thermostat. I just fill the hopper once a day in the winter.
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:30 PM   #23
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I do not consider nuclear power to be enviromentally friendly, the consequences of a nuclear accident are devastating.

Just think Chernobyl. There is still, over 20 years after the accident, places in Northern Sweden where they have to check the reindeers for the levels of radioactive cesium before the meat can be put to market. And this is over a thousand miles plus 20 years from the accident.

The startech plasma machine sounds like it could become big, it almost sound too good to be true. Could be a good idea to buy stock in that company.

I think the oil problem will take care of itself.

The world will not run out of oli some day 20 years from now, instead as the global supply of oli (starting now) is less than the demand the price will go continuously upvards until one day oil, even though it still exist, is the most expencive fuel around and will not be used much.

There is so many alternatives, like electricity, vegetable oil diesels, ethanol and hybrid solutions that will suddenly seem so good when the price of gas is double what it is today.

Simon
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:39 PM   #24
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GeekGuyAndy,

I like wood too, we probably have enough wood in Finland to run all power plants on it. I assume it's still more expencive than coal, othervise they would have abandoned coal long ago. Actually we burn peat also in power plants, Finland is covered in marchlands so there is an abundant supply.

Many have combination wood/oil heating here, using wood when it's available and they have time to load it and using oil when they want the convenience of not having to operate the heater.

Simon
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:45 PM   #25
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I would say let people decide themselves what to drive, some like driving something really big (I think I would from time to time) but let those that pollute pay for it by having some enviroment tax on all polluting fuels.

This would automatically reduce pollution and the market would start thinking up more efficient vehicles and alternative fuels.

Simon
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:55 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milesgallon.com View Post
There is so many alternatives, like electricity, vegetable oil diesels, ethanol and hybrid solutions that will suddenly seem so good when the price of gas is double what it is today.
I would say those are bad alternatives for the most part. Incinerators release a lot of the ultrafines and other hard to detect toxins and are known for that. They also take energy to run, although that's normally waste. Think of it this way, if you make something that contains toxins, there's no way that burning it is going to remove those toxins. There are some ways to remove and concentrate them, organically and chemically, but most incinerators don't do that. Veggie oil diesel is a good option, but can never be widespread. Ethanol is a silly silly concept that politicians run with. It takes far more energy and OIL to make ethanol than just using oil. Hybrids help but still use gas. What's my point? We should all drive smaller cars, and never buy a SUV.
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Old 08-10-2007, 06:34 AM   #27
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On the nukes, they are environmentally friendly in that the only thing they emit is steam, when all operates properly. Radiation must be checked regularly, of course, but that' par for the course. It's only when something goes wrong that there is a problem, but nukes have been operating safely for decades, even using old technology. I mean, there are hundreds of very old reactors in the world, and so far as I know there have been only 3 or 4 failures, decades ago. Chernobyl is the most recent, and it happened about 20 years ago. The biggest issue with nukes is the waste, and with the breeders, even that isn't a problem.

On garbage incinerators, a scrubber in the smokestacks is enough to make it clean. Incinerators are used routinely by the US military to destroy chemical and biological warfare materials (the US has been working on destroying all its stockpiles of these weapons) and they check the smoke coming out to make sure it isn't hazardous, so no problems there. And, the plasma arc incinerator is even hotter than standard incinerators, and requires no outside power to operate once it's started. Once the arc is initiated, the plasma incinerator provides not only its own power to operate, but can provide power to thousands of homes so long as the garbage never stops coming in. The analysis of the material that comes out is very basic materials, as the plasma arc breaks the stuff down by splitting the atoms off. Not splitting the atomic particles themselves, but breaks the atomic bonds to make simpler atoms. Basically, contaminated garbage goes in, clean dirt, air and electricity comes out.

On charging the big polluter more in taxes for driving the bigger polluter, yes, yes and yes. If you wanna burn more fuel, then pay the price for it. I also agree that the oil problem will resolve itself, it already is. When gasoline is over 3 dollars a gallon in the US, the cost is higher than other forms of fuel, and when those forms of fuel are cheaper people will invest money to try and get the tech out. Because of this I doubt that gasoline in the US will ever go more than 3 bucks a gallon, and when it does it won't stay long, because the oil companies know that if they let an alternative form of energy get its foot in the door, their days are numbered. Even they don't have enough money to buy everyone off.
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Old 08-10-2007, 07:10 AM   #28
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:54 AM   #29
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SVOboy, it's easy enough for us in college to agree that public transit works, but I sure couldn't talk some of my fmaily members into relying on public transit instead of driving nicer cars. I hope that our generation continues to see things the way they are now, and be more open to public transit.
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Old 08-10-2007, 10:14 AM   #30
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Nuclear plants shouldn't exist because of murphys law, if it can go wrong it will. Sooner or later. And I don't want to be near that place.

GeekGuyAndy

What's the problem with vegetable oil diesels? Why couldn't all vehicles run on that when it's been developed enough?

During WW2 they ran vehicles on wood, it's not an efficient process but it's possible to run a gas engine on wood by heating the wood until it emits flamable gasses and running the engine on the gasses.

It might only work with pine woods that contain some famable stuff that I have no idea what it's called in english.

Simon
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