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Old 10-28-2010, 01:08 PM   #51
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ************* View Post
36mpg is horrible if you're buying a vehicle to be "green" and to save "green". You'd be much better off buying a Prius/Plug-in prius, even if it means you're speed limited to 62mph in pure electric mode.
First off, the range on the plug in Prius is 12.6 miles in EV mode.

The range on the Volt in EV mode is between 30-50 miles, with the average of 11 magazine test drives getting 36.8 miles in EV mode. (Car and driver flogged it in the twisties and mountains and got 31 miles, at 80mph commuting they got 26 miles)

The average daily commute in the USA is 16.5 miles each way, totaling 33 miles round trip.

So, the average driver in the USA would never use any gas on their commute. Well, the engine would kick on each month long enough to use a tank in a year, but that is so the gas won't go stale.


I say that again. The average driver in the USA will never use gas on their commute.

Plug in prius? For a commuter? A waste of gas compared to the volt.

The average commute is 33 miles, the plug in Prius lasts 13 miles in EV mode. So, that's 20 miles in hybrid mode, at a wonderful 50mpg, every day, 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months.
4800 miles a year in hybrid mode, at 50mpg.

The average commuter, on a year of commuting with the Prius plug in, will use 96 gallons of gas.

The average commuter, on their commute, with the Volt? 10 gallons per year. 1 tank, to make sure it doesn't go stale.

How is the plug in Prius a better car for a commuter? For the average commuter, the Prius uses 10 times the gas of the Volt! I'd say the Volt is green.

If you're constantly making long trips, or you have a commute longer than the Volt's EV range, then yes, the Prius is better, but the average commuter in the US is best served by the Volt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ************* View Post
This response makes no sense in response to any conceivable question. 0mpg first of all doesn't apply to the leaf since it doesn't burn gasoline and secondly your point about it not being in EV mode makes no sense because it's always in EV mode. I have a vague idea of what you're getting at but you're still wrong. You're wrong because you're paying a huge price premium for little to no benefit. The Volt is more expensive than the Leaf whilst not doing anything particularly well. It has poor range as an electric and poor fuel economy/range as a gasoline vehicle. If you want a vehicle that can potentially be all electric and work as a gasoline hybrid, the Plug-in Prius, which I'm sure will be cheaper, would make more sense. If you want a real electric vehicle, I'd wait for the Ford Focus EV before getting the Leaf.

Firstoff, you're missing my point! Both the leaf and the Volt are electric vehicles. Not plug in hybrids. However, the leaf, by being a dedicated electric, and smaller and lighter, can get a longer range, yes.

The problem is, if you're over at your friend's house, having forgotten to recharge the leaf last night, and you go out to discover that you don't have enough range to get home? You better hope your friend has an extra room, because you're going to have to wait seven hours for your car to charge on their standard outlet, because I doubt they have a quick charger installed in their garage.

If you're in that same situation with the Volt? Oh well! You'll get a "mere" 36 mpg on your drive home, then you can plug it in and charge it again overnight.

Or let us say you have a leaf, because your commute makes it ideal. What about those times you need to make a longer trip? Or even better, what if you came back home so tired you forgot to plug it in last night? Do you call off work because you don't have enough charge to make the commute? You would have to in a leaf, but a volt? Oh well, you'll get your car and get a "mere" 36mpg that day, then remember to charge it that night.

Edit:
I have another situation? What if you need to go on a rare trip several hundred miles away? With a Leaf, if you don't own another car (And the expenses that go with it), you'd have to pay several hundred dollars to rent a decent car, plus the gas that comes with it, and a midsize car that would fit all you need for the trip would likely get around 30mpg.
With a volt? Oh no. You're going to get a "mere" 36mpg on this trip, which you can do without any additional paperwork, or additional expenses.


As I have said. If you're regularly making long trips, or if you have a long commute, then Yes, the Prius plug in would be a better choice. That 50mpg is excellent even with the downside of the 13 mile range. Well, even then you'd have to have a commute of about 12 miles of "hybrid" mode to make the Prius worth it. But if you do? If you have a commute of 50 miles per day or more? The Prius is better.
However, for the average American commute of 33 miles per day, combined with the average American's fear of being stranded by an EV, or the desire to take the occasional long trip, the Volt is the car for you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by theholycow View Post
As I understand, that's the entire point of the vehicle. It's not intended first for people who need to run on gas for extended trips, its main purpose is for people who can drive it all-electric every day but are worried that they'll get stranded.
BINGO! And for those people, it is an amazing car! All the benefits of an electric car, but none of the drawbacks! Yes, you don't get the benefits as greatly as a Leaf could, but for the average driver, you don't need them.
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:40 PM   #52
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

I will add this:

America has been scared of EV's because of "What if?"

What if I run out of charge? What if I need to go farther?

THAT is why America wouldn't buy EV's.


And the Volt has the answer.

What if? Well, if it happens, your Volt changes from being an EV to being a well put together, well optioned, comfortable family sedan that gets better MPG than 97% of the family sedans you can buy.

That's what if. And that is why the Volt is the car to show America that the EV is not to be feared.
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Old 10-28-2010, 02:26 PM   #53
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

That is an excellent answer.

Thank You.
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Old 10-28-2010, 02:46 PM   #54
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

agreed. leave out the intellectuality and focus on the practicality.
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Old 10-28-2010, 03:34 PM   #55
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Exactly, because if its not practical, most people won't do it.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:38 AM   #56
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

You guys sure have worked hard to defend this vehicle, yet I can't remember, but why would you pay at least $32K for a Prius like vehicle that can run in purely electric mode for between 25-50 miles and gets only between 30-50mpg when it runs in charge sustaining mode with the gasoline engine? I'm very skeptical over the volt's range as running the heater in the winter is going to either run the gasoline engine (therefore not a pure EV) or it's going to suck the batteries dry VERY quickly. If the Volt had cost the price that it does now or less but had a 100 mile range, I wouldn't be so quick to criticize because then I could be rest assured that for the great majority of the time, the gasoline engine would not come on. A trip that is more than 100 miles would definitely fill the bill as an uncommon occurrence. However, with an official range of 40 miles that can and will degrade depending on age of the batteries, driving conditions, accessories, etc., the claim that this vehicle will be mostly an electric is false.

You'd be buying an electric vehicle mostly for two reasons: The novelty of having an electric vehicle and for the environment... However, the second point isn't valid for the majority of the country thanks to the usage of coal. This vehicle would be a horrible fleet vehicle, yet I have a bad feeling it may be used just for that purpose in which case, the fuel economy of its gasoline engine WOULD matter. We don't know the price point of the Plug-in Prius but I'm pretty certain it will be less than the Volt. The range should be less in the Plug-in Prius, but the environmental impact will be less, for the majority of people thanks to the fact that 50mpg with gasoline means less emissions than 100% pure EV mode being charged by a coal power plant. However, if you're one of the lucky saps that has "clean power" (natural gas)/(hydro), then you probably live in a part of the country that can be both hot and cold, is mountainous, like in California or very hot like in Arizona.

So, if you're an environmentalist in CA or AZ, then your estimated range should be substantially reduced, and will get worse over time. If you're an environmentalist in the middle of the country or on the east coast, then the argument of being a purely EV or mostly EV vehicle being "green" is invalid thanks to the dirty power that the majority of the country has. (coal)

Also, you can't possibly be buying this vehicle for economical purposes because it's so much more expensive than a Prius and is completely unsuitable as a fleet vehicle. A common argument against the Prius is that it's not economical over that of a non hybrid because of its price premium except when used as a high mileage fleet vehicle. (Taxis, delivery, courier, etc.) The Volt however is NEVER more economical in any scenario because you couldn't put enough miles onto the vehicle in EV mode in order to take advantage of the cheaper energy used to power the vehicle.

As for novelty, if I wanted a "novel vehicle", I'd get the Nissan Leaf or the Ford Focus EV, at least that way you'd have a purely electric vehicle with somewhat acceptable range and a much lower price tag.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:45 AM   #57
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
Firstoff, you're missing my point! Both the leaf and the Volt are electric vehicles. Not plug in hybrids. However, the leaf, by being a dedicated electric, and smaller and lighter, can get a longer range, yes.
Btw, the Leaf is an electric vehicle (duh) but the volt is a plug in hybrid. The govt. is calling it a plug-in hybrid, and so is everyone else now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt
The Chevrolet Volt is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle being produced by the Chevrolet...
Also, the volt isn't as "green" as the Prius thanks to it abiding by the lower emissions standards than other hybrids on the market.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...ing/?src=twrhp
It's only a ULEV vehicle when the decent hybrids are already AT-PZEV (have no gas tank emissions and have much longer emissions warranty, and stricter exhaust emissions).
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:28 AM   #58
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by ************* View Post
Also, the volt isn't as "green" as the Prius thanks to it abiding by the lower emissions standards than other hybrids on the market.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...ing/?src=twrhp
It's only a ULEV vehicle when the decent hybrids are already AT-PZEV (have no gas tank emissions and have much longer emissions warranty, and stricter exhaust emissions).
First, in reply to your first post, all I was able to glean is that you're claiming that EV's are inherently not green due to the source of electricity. (This isn't worth arguing how clean "clean coal" is, though that is a very valid argument for another time.)

And that belief makes your second post make more sense.

However, if you are like the rest of the world and see the EV as the ultimate of green vehicles, the Volt makes more sense than the Prius.

I say again, as I showed in my previous post.

The average American will never use any gasoline on their commute in a Volt.

Over the course of a year, even if you count the single tank burned to keep the fuel from going stale, the average commuter will use 10 times more gas in a Prius than in a Volt.

That's like trying to say that an H1 is Green compared to a 1st gen Insight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ************* View Post
Btw, the Leaf is an electric vehicle (duh) but the volt is a plug in hybrid. The govt. is calling it a plug-in hybrid, and so is everyone else now.
I say that, because to the average American commuter, the volt is an EV. To the average American commuter, it will NEVER see PHEV mode. Therefore it is more fair to compare it to a large, comfortable Leaf that you never have to fear it running out of charge.

The Volt is an EV for people who are scared of getting stuck, or think they might have to make a long trip.

If you have a long commute, or are regularly making long trips, the PHEV Prius is a better choice, but the average American will be served wonderfully by the Volt.
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:48 AM   #59
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Wink Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ************* View Post
You guys sure have worked hard to defend this vehicle, yet I can't remember, but why would you pay at least $32K for a Prius like vehicle that can run in purely electric mode for between 25-50 miles and gets only between 30-50mpg when it runs in charge sustaining mode with the gasoline engine? I'm very skeptical over the volt's range as running the heater in the winter is going to either run the gasoline engine (therefore not a pure EV) or it's going to suck the batteries dry VERY quickly. If the Volt had cost the price that it does now or less but had a 100 mile range, I wouldn't be so quick to criticize because then I could be rest assured that for the great majority of the time, the gasoline engine would not come on. A trip that is more than 100 miles would definitely fill the bill as an uncommon occurrence. However, with an official range of 40 miles that can and will degrade depending on age of the batteries, driving conditions, accessories, etc., the claim that this vehicle will be mostly an electric is false.

You'd be buying an electric vehicle mostly for two reasons: The novelty of having an electric vehicle and for the environment... However, the second point isn't valid for the majority of the country thanks to the usage of coal. This vehicle would be a horrible fleet vehicle, yet I have a bad feeling it may be used just for that purpose in which case, the fuel economy of its gasoline engine WOULD matter. We don't know the price point of the Plug-in Prius but I'm pretty certain it will be less than the Volt. The range should be less in the Plug-in Prius, but the environmental impact will be less, for the majority of people thanks to the fact that 50mpg with gasoline means less emissions than 100% pure EV mode being charged by a coal power plant. However, if you're one of the lucky saps that has "clean power" (natural gas)/(hydro), then you probably live in a part of the country that can be both hot and cold, is mountainous, like in California or very hot like in Arizona.

So, if you're an environmentalist in CA or AZ, then your estimated range should be substantially reduced, and will get worse over time. If you're an environmentalist in the middle of the country or on the east coast, then the argument of being a purely EV or mostly EV vehicle being "green" is invalid thanks to the dirty power that the majority of the country has. (coal)

Also, you can't possibly be buying this vehicle for economical purposes because it's so much more expensive than a Prius and is completely unsuitable as a fleet vehicle. A common argument against the Prius is that it's not economical over that of a non hybrid because of its price premium except when used as a high mileage fleet vehicle. (Taxis, delivery, courier, etc.) The Volt however is NEVER more economical in any scenario because you couldn't put enough miles onto the vehicle in EV mode in order to take advantage of the cheaper energy used to power the vehicle.

As for novelty, if I wanted a "novel vehicle", I'd get the Nissan Leaf or the Ford Focus EV, at least that way you'd have a purely electric vehicle with somewhat acceptable range and a much lower price tag.
Feel free to not buy a volt. The rest of the world will turn it into a sales success, over time more and more cars will adopt the volt's drive train arrangement. Version 2, 3, 4... of the drive train will become cheaper, faster, lighter, more efficient as more and more people buy the car. But don't worry. You can stick to your guns all the way through that. After all, this is really about you now isn't it?
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:44 PM   #60
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
First, in reply to your first post, all I was able to glean is that you're claiming that EV's are inherently not green due to the source of electricity. (This isn't worth arguing how clean "clean coal" is, though that is a very valid argument for another time.)

And that belief makes your second post make more sense.

However, if you are like the rest of the world and see the EV as the ultimate of green vehicles, the Volt makes more sense than the Prius.

I say again, as I showed in my previous post.

The average American will never use any gasoline on their commute in a Volt.

Over the course of a year, even if you count the single tank burned to keep the fuel from going stale, the average commuter will use 10 times more gas in a Prius than in a Volt.

That's like trying to say that an H1 is Green compared to a 1st gen Insight.
With the way you've been describing EV vehicles, ANY EV vehicle is "more green" than a non EV vehicle. That makes no sense if you understand that there is an environmental cost to producing electricity and makes perfect sense if you don't think there is an environmental cost to producing electricity. Go compare the Ford Explorer EV with the Toyota Corolla and tell me with a straight face that the 2001 Ford Explorer USPS Electric is "more green" than the 2001 Toyota Corolla... Go to fueleconomy.gov and make the comparison yourself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
I say that, because to the average American commuter, the volt is an EV. To the average American commuter, it will NEVER see PHEV mode. Therefore it is more fair to compare it to a large, comfortable Leaf that you never have to fear it running out of charge.

The Volt is an EV for people who are scared of getting stuck, or think they might have to make a long trip.

If you have a long commute, or are regularly making long trips, the PHEV Prius is a better choice, but the average American will be served wonderfully by the Volt.
Now that's bull****! Why? Because it'd be incredibly rare for someone (not elderly) to drive their vehicle for 100,000 miles and NEVER see PHEV mode. I don't know how the heater works in the volt, but if the car is seeing sub zero temperatures, from what I know, the vehicle uses the gasoline engine to heat the battery.. Therefore using up to or going past the "only 10 gallons" mark.
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