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Old 10-29-2010, 12:46 PM   #61
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
Feel free to not buy a volt. The rest of the world will turn it into a sales success, over time more and more cars will adopt the volt's drive train arrangement. Version 2, 3, 4... of the drive train will become cheaper, faster, lighter, more efficient as more and more people buy the car. But don't worry. You can stick to your guns all the way through that. After all, this is really about you now isn't it?
The same can be said for yourself..
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:19 PM   #62
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by ************* View Post
Now that's bull****! Why? Because it'd be incredibly rare for someone (not elderly) to drive their vehicle for 100,000 miles and NEVER see PHEV mode. I don't know how the heater works in the volt, but if the car is seeing sub zero temperatures, from what I know, the vehicle uses the gasoline engine to heat the battery.. Therefore using up to or going past the "only 10 gallons" mark.
The average American commuter. On their commute. As I elaborated in the earlier post.

The average commute is 33 miles per day.

The average Volt EV range is 36.8 (As according to 11 different magazine test drives, with conditions ranging from 45mph "hypermiling", to 80mph interstate traffic, to flogging it through mountain twisties.)

Therefore, the average American commuter will not exceed the Volt's average EV range during the average commute over a year.

Will they use gas on weekends? Likely. Will they go longer trips? Likely. Will they come across a not-average commute that makes them go into PHEV mode? Likely.

If they make a lot of trips, or come across a lot of times they're in PHEV mode, then the PHEV Prius is better for them.

However, based on the statistical averages, my statement is still true:

The average commuter will never leave EV mode on their commute in a Volt, only using one tank per year to keep it from going stale.
The average commuter will use 96 gallons of gasoline per year on their commute with a PHEV Prius.

The numbers I quoted were based on averages, and therefore give an average experience.

However, the numbers don't represent all possible variables, just the average.
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Old 10-29-2010, 03:21 PM   #63
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by ************* View Post
I don't know how the heater works in the volt, but if the car is seeing sub zero temperatures, from what I know, the vehicle uses the gasoline engine to heat the battery..
OH no! How un PC of them. Quick, somebody call the green police.
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:27 PM   #64
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
The average American commuter. On their commute. As I elaborated in the earlier post.

The average commute is 33 miles per day.

The average Volt EV range is 36.8 (As according to 11 different magazine test drives, with conditions ranging from 45mph "hypermiling", to 80mph interstate traffic, to flogging it through mountain twisties.)

Therefore, the average American commuter will not exceed the Volt's average EV range during the average commute over a year.

Will they use gas on weekends? Likely. Will they go longer trips? Likely. Will they come across a not-average commute that makes them go into PHEV mode? Likely.

If they make a lot of trips, or come across a lot of times they're in PHEV mode, then the PHEV Prius is better for them.

However, based on the statistical averages, my statement is still true:

The average commuter will never leave EV mode on their commute in a Volt, only using one tank per year to keep it from going stale.
The average commuter will use 96 gallons of gasoline per year on their commute with a PHEV Prius.

The numbers I quoted were based on averages, and therefore give an average experience.

However, the numbers don't represent all possible variables, just the average.
Well averages are useless then because "on average" I drive 8 miles a day but when you actually look at my driving habits, on the days I do drive, I drive around 40 miles for a single trip. Now of course not everyone is like me, but if people work 5 days a week and you're averaging out their driving over the course of a year (taking the number of miles they drive and divide by 365), then the numbers will look like they work better than they actually will be. I have been reading some of these articles that are reviewing the Volt and all of them seem to be testing the range during optimal ambient temperatures.

Keep in mind that "Averaging" doesn't work like you think it does because averaging the fuel usage and henceforth getting the mpg of a Prius or any other vehicle is very different than averaging the the energy and fuel usage and getting the MPG of a Volt. If you exceed the electric range for a day, you're going to use more fuel. Statistically speaking, based STRICTLY upon the numbers given, the majority of people won't use any gasoline besides the 10 gallons. However, these statistics are useless and the numbers that have been given I don't feel accurately represents the entire picture. Worst of all, people who drive the volt and claim they got 60mpg or 120mpg would be thinking they're that much more green than a Prius when in reality they're no better or are actually worse given the electrical generation methods.

[[Math begins!!]]
On "average" people now drive 15K miles a year.. That works perfectly with the volt's stupid "40 mile range" number. Since 40 miles X 365=14,600.. However, people don't drive 40 miles, EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE YEAR. People don't commute EVERY DAY. Assuming people commute 5 days of the year and mostly don't drive on the weekends (maybe 10 miles a day for weekends), we can take (104*10)=1040. 15000-1040=13960. But then people usually have 2 weeks paid vacation, so you should subtract two weeks worth of commuting and instead replace it with an average of something like 10 miles per day. 10(days)*10(miles)=100(miles). 13,960-100=13860. After all that, ON AVERAGE, you probably drive 13,860 miles for commuting (probably even less b/c people DO go on trips). (Year - weekend/vacation days=commuting days) (365-114=251) commuting days.. 13860miles/251days=55.22 average miles PER Commuting day.. (This means this driver is guaranteed to burn gasoline every day they commute) But the volt's Electric range isn't always 40 miles, sometimes it's less, like say 25-35. To be generous, I'll AVERAGE the winter pure electric commute to be 30 miles per day (We haven't gotten to the gasoline part yet!). For 70 commute days in winter, 70*30=210 miles of EV commute in winter. The rest of the year, the electric commute should be 35-45, so I'll average the pure electric commute to be 40 miles.. For 181 commute days the rest of the year, 181*40=7,240mi of pure EV commute.
Total mileage for yr=15,000, Total commute mileage=13,860, Total Vacation/weekend mileage=1,140, Total commute days=251, Total winter days=70, Total commute days for the rest of the year :181=(251-70), Pure electric mileage per commute day for rest of year=40mi, Pure electric mileage per commute day for winter=30mi.

So, for the weekend and holiday, we’ll assume it’s all electric even though people usually go on vacations far away…so I’m giving you a “freebie” for this one.
Total pure Electric mileage=9,340mi (Winter commute: 2,100mi=70*30), (Summer Commute: 7,240mi=40*181), Weekend/Vacation: 1,140mi (already established this would be all electric)
Total gasoline mileage=4,520mi (Yearly commute mileage – EV commute mileage = Gasoline commute mileage) (13,860-9,340=4,520)

Since I’ve concluded the commute mileage is around 55.22 per day, for the summer I subtract 40 from this number and for winter I subtract 30 from this number in order to get the “gasoline mileage” (miles covered using gasoline).
(55.21-30=25.21), (55.21-40=15.21). (70 days of winter commute * 25.22 = 1765.4mi) (181 days rest of the year commute * 15.22 = 2754.82mi)


[[Math Ends]]

Possible Winter gasoline consumption levels:
At a GENEROUS 50mpg, over 1765.4mi (winter), the vehicle will have burned 35.31g of gasoline.
At a conservative 40mpg, over 1765.4mi (winter), the vehicle will have burned 44.14g of gasoline.
At a realistic 35mpg, over 1765.4mi (this is after a cold winter), the vehicle will have burned 50.44g of gasoline.

Possible Summer gasoline consumption levels:
At a GENEROUS 50mpg, over 2754.82m (rest of year), the vehicle will have burned 55.1g of gasoline.
At a conservative 40mpg, over 2754.82m (rest of year), the vehicle will have burned 68.87g of gasoline.
At a realistic 35mpg, over 2754.82m (you do have a lead foot after all), the vehicle will have burned 78.71g of gasoline.

So, over the course of the year, if you average 50mpg when you’re in charge sustained mode, you’ll have burned 90.41g of gasoline. If you average 40mpg when you’re in charge sustained mode, you’ll have burned 113.01g of gasoline. Finally, if you average 35mpg when you’re in charge sustained mode, you’ll have burned 129.15g of gasoline.

Using the retard math brought to you by General Motors thanks to not factoring in the electrical grid usage to charge the vehicle; when you burn “only” 129.15g of gasoline over 15K miles, you’ll average 116.144mpg (35mpg avg when on gasoline), 132.73mpg if you burned “only” 113.01g of gasoline (40mpg avg when on gasoline), and 165.91mpg if you burned “only” 90.41g of gasoline (50mpg avg when on gasoline).

But like I said, it’s retard math because it doesn’t factor in the usage of the grid. A purely gasoline vehicle getting 100mpg would be far more amazing than the Volt getting 165.91mpg because the energy used to charge the battery isn’t free and has a significant environmental cost to it.

If you drive a Prius that averages 45-55mpg over 15K miles, it will burn between 333.33g - 272.72g of gasoline vs. the Volt burning 90.41g-129.15g of gasoline. So, if you get the Volt and you consider yourself "average", then no, you won't be burning "only 10g of gasoline" but something more like the figures I posted above..at the very least!

So, is a vehicle that has a similar or worse environmental footprint than the Prius, is much more expensive, has a shorter warranty, and is unproven worth the price you pay just so that it can burn 1/3 less gasoline but at the cost of another fuel source instead? I mean my figures didn't even take into account the fact that within that 15K mile window, maybe 1000-3000 of those miles are vacation miles, in that case means it's all gasoline all the way which could increase the fuel burned from 20g (best case scenario) to 85.5g (worst case scenario). (Assumes gasoline average range of 50mpg - 35mpg)
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Old 10-29-2010, 09:33 PM   #65
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by tjts1 View Post
OH no! How un PC of them. Quick, somebody call the green police.
Last time I checked, "EV" vehicles don't use gasoline.. Yet everyone defending this vehicle insist it's an EV when it's really a Plug-in hybrid.
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:43 AM   #66
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by ************* View Post
[[Math begins!!]]
On "average" people now drive 15K miles a year.. That works perfectly with the volt's stupid "40 mile range" number. Since 40 miles X 365=14,600.. However, people don't drive 40 miles, EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THE YEAR. People don't commute EVERY DAY. Assuming people commute 5 days of the year and mostly don't drive on the weekends (maybe 10 miles a day for weekends), we can take (104*10)=1040. 15000-1040=13960. But then people usually have 2 weeks paid vacation, so you should subtract two weeks worth of commuting and instead replace it with an average of something like 10 miles per day. 10(days)*10(miles)=100(miles). 13,960-100=13860. After all that, ON AVERAGE, you probably drive 13,860 miles for commuting (probably even less b/c people DO go on trips). (Year - weekend/vacation days=commuting days) (365-114=251) commuting days.. 13860miles/251days=55.22 average miles PER Commuting day.. (This means this driver is guaranteed to burn gasoline every day they commute)
The problem your calculations is that you started with a large average, and made up numbers as to how to break it down. Your calculations have concluded that the average commute is 55 miles?

You are disregarding the fact that the average commute is 33 miles per day.

It's not conjecture, it's not guessing, that's not calculations based on average driver miles.

According to the US Census, the average daily commute is 26 minutes each way, covering about 16.5 miles.

Yes, the average driver drives 15k a year, but only 33 miles per day on his commute. Your calculations have no basis but the 15k a year driven by the average person. There is already an established average daily commute, so you have to work that into your calculations, rather than picking numbers out of thin air to fit with your calculations.

Due to the fact that early in your calculations you come to a falsehood, the rest of the calculations that you extrapolated from the falsehood are inherently false, and therefore are to be disregarded.

33 miles per day, 5 days a week 50 weeks per year, assuming 2 weeks paid vacation.
Only 8250 miles per year of commuting.
Which means the average person drives 6750 miles NOT commuting.

And it's how the average person drives those 6750 miles as to whether he should have a PHEV Prius or a Volt. If those miles are short trips each weekend? The Volt would be better. If those miles are all from one big vacation? The Prius would be better. If they're somewhere in between? Well, the individual driver needs to look at their driving habits to see which vehicle they would be best served by.

But, as I have said, the Prius will use 10 times the gasoline of the Volt in the average yearly commute.


Yes, NOBODY IN THE WORLD IS AVERAGE! Nobody in the world will drive the Volt and actually use 0 gallons. As an individual driver, you need to analyze your own driving patterns to see what you'll be best served by.



Case Study:
My grandmother-in-law (Is that the proper term?) has not driven farther than 20 miles from her home in years. She goes to bridge club, she goes home, she goes to the supermarket, she goes home, she goes to the shooting range, she goes home. There are a few other places that she goes, but it's always "Drive out, drive home".

My father in law has been trying to talk her into getting an Electric car when one comes available.

She adamantly refuses to, even though the electric car would suit her brilliantly. She refuses to on the basis of "What if I need to take a long trip?" Despite the fact that she hasn't gone more than 20 miles from her home in years. She simply doesn't take long trips. But "What if she needs to?"

Well, if she has the Volt, she'd have an Electric Car that would be ideal for her needs, using a pittance of gas if any at all. And that glaring "What if I need to take a long trip?" Well, if she does, she'll have a car that gets 35mpg on that trip.

THAT is why they made the Volt.

People who would be best served by an EV, but are too scared to get one.

THAT is why I compare the Volt not to a PHEV, but to an EV that can go the distance if needed. Because that is who they're trying to sell to, that is who their customers are. Not people who would be best served by a true PHEV.
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Old 10-30-2010, 07:53 AM   #67
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Let me place in a separate post that which you seem to be missing in every single post I've made.



I am not saying that the Volt is inherently better than the PHEV Prius.

I am saying and I have said again and again:

If your commute is average, or shorter than average, and you don't make many long trips, then you would likely be best getting an EV.

If you would be best served by an EV and want one, but either are scared of getting stranded, or don't want to deal with the hassle of a second car or renting a car for the occasional long trip, then the Volt is the car for you.

Because if you fit the criteria, you are the reason the Volt was made.


(And you know what? A lot of Americans fit that Criteria. Which is why they made the Volt)
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Old 10-30-2010, 12:51 PM   #68
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
The problem your calculations is that you started with a large average, and made up numbers as to how to break it down. Your calculations have concluded that the average commute is 55 miles?

You are disregarding the fact that the average commute is 33 miles per day.
Sorry, but the average commute is NOT 33 miles or 12K miles a year anymore, but more like 15K miles a year or 41 miles per day. I think you failed to see the significance of the statistic of 33 miles = 12K miles per year and 41 miles = 15K miles per year. I've often heard that on the east coast people drive 12K miles per year while on the west coast it's more like 15K miles per year. So, please show me where the official statistic shows a break down of the annual miles traveled, with the 33 miles per day being strictly for commuting for work and is not just "the average" miles traveled as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
According to the US Census, the average daily commute is 26 minutes each way, covering about 16.5 miles.
That's a US Census statistic, not an NHTSA statistic. That "average" includes people who walk to work and people who commute via public transportation; we're talking strictly cars. Anyway it would have been a good statistical point if it was actually relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
Yes, the average driver drives 15k a year, but only 33 miles per day on his commute. Your calculations have no basis but the 15k a year driven by the average person. There is already an established average daily commute, so you have to work that into your calculations, rather than picking numbers out of thin air to fit with your calculations.
You've yet to prove that.. All I'm seeing is the number of miles people drive per year divided by the number of days in the year. 33 miles per day perfectly aligns with 12K miles a year (a common statistic) and 40 miles per day aligns pretty close to 15K miles a year.


Just like you thought you couldn't respond to my post because of it being based upon "falsehoods" neither can I of yours.

quickest statistic that I could find:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinform...023/fig4_4.cfm




Highway statistics archive page:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/ohpi/hss/hsspubsarc.cfm

Gotta keep that URL for future reference...
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Old 10-30-2010, 01:21 PM   #69
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
Let me place in a separate post that which you seem to be missing in every single post I've made.



I am not saying that the Volt is inherently better than the PHEV Prius.

I am saying and I have said again and again:

If your commute is average, or shorter than average, and you don't make many long trips, then you would likely be best getting an EV.

If you would be best served by an EV and want one, but either are scared of getting stranded, or don't want to deal with the hassle of a second car or renting a car for the occasional long trip, then the Volt is the car for you.

Because if you fit the criteria, you are the reason the Volt was made.


(And you know what? A lot of Americans fit that Criteria. Which is why they made the Volt)
Yeah well you know? Having a corolla is perfect for the average family... Why? Because they have 2.4 kids! The rear middle seat is the perfect for that 4/10ths of a child!
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:21 PM   #70
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

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Yeah well you know? Having a corolla is perfect for the average family... Why? Because they have 2.4 kids! The rear middle seat is the perfect for that 4/10ths of a child!
Wait, what? That is... Wow. That's the best you could come up with to argue my core point?

Heck, I didn't even say "The average commuter" in that post, I said "If your commute is average, or shorter than average." Big difference.

That, and you're absolutely refusing to touch the argument that for somebody who has an average commute, or less, and who would likely be served best by an EV, but have the common fear that many Americans have (being stranded by your EV, or needing to take a long trip), then the Volt is the car to assuage those fears, and still have the advantages of an EV.

For the Average commute of 33 miles, or people who have a commute shorter than average, the Volt behaves like an EV. HOWEVER the Volt will never leave you stranded due to a low battery, and the Volt is capable of getting very good MPG (when you compare it to other mid-size cars, not other hybrids.) when the battery runs dry. 36 mpg is nothing to scoff at when most mid size cars get 30mpg.

THAT is my core argument. THAT is why the Volt is a good car.

As I have said, consider your own driving habits. If you'd regularly be in "Range extending mode" with your Volt, you'd likely be better with a Prius. But for my Grandmother in law, the Volt is ideal. For many other Americans, the Volt is ideal.

And for what the Volt is made to be, an EV that is capable of going past the EV range if needed, it is a brilliant car.
Could it be better? Of course, but it's already revolutionary.


If you reply with inane nonsense again, or if you fail to intelligently rebut my main point, I'll not be replying. The argument is becoming circular, with little new and intelligent information being brought forth from either side. I'm tired of repeating myself, and I do not appreciate idiocy trying to make me look foolish.

If no intelligent rebuttal of my core point is had, Good day.
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