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Old 10-30-2010, 05:40 PM   #71
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
Wait, what? That is... Wow. That's the best you could come up with to argue my core point?

Heck, I didn't even say "The average commuter" in that post, I said "If your commute is average, or shorter than average." Big difference.

That, and you're absolutely refusing to touch the argument that for somebody who has an average commute, or less, and who would likely be served best by an EV, but have the common fear that many Americans have (being stranded by your EV, or needing to take a long trip), then the Volt is the car to assuage those fears, and still have the advantages of an EV.

For the Average commute of 33 miles, or people who have a commute shorter than average, the Volt behaves like an EV. HOWEVER the Volt will never leave you stranded due to a low battery, and the Volt is capable of getting very good MPG (when you compare it to other mid-size cars, not other hybrids.) when the battery runs dry. 36 mpg is nothing to scoff at when most mid size cars get 30mpg.
The Volt is as much of a "midsize car" as the Prius is.. This isn't 36mpg on a purely gasoline powered vehicle, but on a plug-in hybrid! 36mpg is something to scoff at when you're paying a huge premium to "be green" when you're not and are just pissing your money away. Anyway, you seem to be missing my point, which is, "what's the average commute"? You say 33miles, so does GM, based upon what statistic? The 12K miles per year? Do you not understand where they came up with this number? Do you even understand that the 15K miles per person per year number is really just the total VMT divided by the number of licensed drivers and or vehicles? I mean talk about inferring data, you went as far as to take the 33 mille commute, multiply it by 5 days of the week and 50 weeks in the year when you didn't even know the origin of that "33 mile commute". What we need instead is a weighted average yet none of these statistics do that because that would be too onerous and the accuracy of it could be called into question due to the interviewing of different demographics..

You fail to see the gravity of the issue at hand. The "average" commute could be 15K miles per year but this is an AVERAGE. Meaning that you could have 2 drivers that drive 25K miles per year and 2 drivers that drive 5K miles per year, the AVERAGE is 15K miles! The Volt may in fact be for the "average driver" but this driver isn't as pervasive as it would appear thanks to the statistical averaging of these data points.
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Old 10-30-2010, 06:28 PM   #72
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plugin_...#Disadvantages



that's straight from wikipedia...

alright, if you don't see the significance of this, I'll break it down for you. Do you see where it says "annual gasoline savings compared to a HEV"? Do you see where it has a (2) next to it which leads to the line "(2) Assuming 15,000 miles per year? Alright so below the part about annual gasoline savings compared to an HEV, see where it says 200 gallons of savings? How many gallons of gasoline does a Prius which gets 50mpg use over the course of 15K miles? I posted this earlier in the thread and the answer was 300 gallons. So, if the Volt is "saving" 200 gallons of gasoline compared to an HEV, yet it takes 300 gallons of gasoline in order to drive 15K with an HEV vehicle, then that would mean only one thing! That is the Volt is using around 100 gallons per 15K miles per year! Wow, what a coincidence!? I had made those EXACT estimations on my own!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ************* View Post
If you drive a Prius that averages 45-55mpg over 15K miles, it will burn between 333.33g - 272.72g of gasoline vs. the Volt burning 90.41g-129.15g of gasoline. So, if you get the Volt and you consider yourself "average", then no, you won't be burning "only 10g of gasoline" but something more like the figures I posted above..at the very least!
So, my point was that the point about the "average" person would use almost no gasoline is false as illustrated by not only the wiki article but also by my independent calculations.

So, as I was saying... Is the Premium of the Volt really worth it over that of a vanilla Prius and or the Plug-in Prius? I'm saying it's not and I gave very explicit reasons as to why I'm saying it's not. I understand your point is that people should buy the vehicle based upon their needs but a lot of people don't do this and assume the statistics apply to them when it's in their favor and don't apply to them when it's not in their favor. They see that the vehicle is great for the "average commuter" and that's enough for them, even if the term "average commuter" is so poorly calculated and determined, it's laughable.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:31 PM   #73
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

I answer because it was an intelligent response, even if you still refuse to confront my main point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ************* View Post
You fail to see the gravity of the issue at hand. The "average" commute could be 15K miles per year but this is an AVERAGE. Meaning that you could have 2 drivers that drive 25K miles per year and 2 drivers that drive 5K miles per year, the AVERAGE is 15K miles! The Volt may in fact be for the "average driver" but this driver isn't as pervasive as it would appear thanks to the statistical averaging of these data points.
That is my point.

If you are at average, or below average commute distance, then the Volt is ideal. For your commute. Those 2 5k a year drivers would very likely be an ideal customer for the Volt, and those 2 25k a year drivers would likely be an ideal customer for the PHEV Prius. Never once did I say the Volt was ideal for everyone, due to some fallacy that if the average person is X then that means every person is X.
I know what average is, and I know that nobody is truly average. But there are usually just as many people above average as below, becoming more true the larger the sample group. And the Volt is good for those who are average or below average distance drivers. It is not good for those who are above average distance drivers. I never claimed it was.


And yet, you still refuse to confront my main point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
That, and you're absolutely refusing to touch the argument that for somebody who has an average commute, or less, and who would likely be served best by an EV, but have the common fear that many Americans have (being stranded by your EV, or needing to take a long trip), then the Volt is the car to assuage those fears, and still have the advantages of an EV.


We've have said all that really can be said about the "average commute" tripe. We've both dissolved into repeating ourselves in different ways about that argument.

I still stand that the Volt is the ideal car for people like my wife's grandmother, who would be best served by an EV, but refuse to get one due to fears of range.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:44 PM   #74
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biffmeistro View Post
I answer because it was an intelligent response, even if you still refuse to confront my main point.



That is my point.

If you are at average, or below average commute distance, then the Volt is ideal. For your commute. Those 2 5k a year drivers would very likely be an ideal customer for the Volt, and those 2 25k a year drivers would likely be an ideal customer for the PHEV Prius. Never once did I say the Volt was ideal for everyone, due to some fallacy that if the average person is X then that means every person is X.
I know what average is, and I know that nobody is truly average. But there are usually just as many people above average as below, becoming more true the larger the sample group. And the Volt is good for those who are average or below average distance drivers. It is not good for those who are above average distance drivers. I never claimed it was.


And yet, you still refuse to confront my main point:





We've have said all that really can be said about the "average commute" tripe. We've both dissolved into repeating ourselves in different ways about that argument.

I still stand that the Volt is the ideal car for people like my wife's grandmother, who would be best served by an EV, but refuse to get one due to fears of range.
Well, for your wife's mother, it would be cheaper just to get a dedicated electric vehicle and then have a gasoline vehicle and or borrow one for those "longer trips".
http://www.dailytech.com/Nissan+Cons...ticle19855.htm

Pretty much would solve that dilemma while being much cheaper than the Volt.
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:01 PM   #75
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ************* View Post
Well, for your wife's mother, it would be cheaper just to get a dedicated electric vehicle and then have a gasoline vehicle and or borrow one for those "longer trips".
http://www.dailytech.com/Nissan+Cons...ticle19855.htm

Pretty much would solve that dilemma while being much cheaper than the Volt.
My wife's grandmother absolutely refuses to get an electric vehicle on fear of getting stranded, and because she doesn't like borrowing from other people, and she doesn't want to either pay the costs of an extra car, or the deal with the fuss of rental. Believe me, my father in law has tried to convince her.

But you know what? Silly as her reasoning may be, she is not unique.

And thank you for linking that article. That article proves that it is a pervasive enough problem that Nissan is considering starting a free rental program. If they're willing to spend that much money to overcome an illogical fear that is keeping people from buying EVs? It is obviously a common enough fear that it is keeping enough people from buying Leafs that they would profit from the additional sales, despite the additional cost of maintaining a rental fleet that they will not be able to make a dime off of.

Many Americans who would be best served by an EV refuse to get one based primarily on fear of getting stranded, and secondly on worries of what to do on an occasional long trip.

Is it logical for them to fear like that? No. But they do. Many people do. And the Volt is the answer to the fear. Because THAT is why the Volt was made the way it was. An answer to the fears, trepidations, and negative aspects of an EV, while maintaining all of the benefits, even if to a lesser degree than a dedicated EV.

Yes, looking at it as an EV, it is mediocre EV at best.
Looking at it as a PHEV? It is a mediocre PHEV at best.

However, it is a far better distance vehicle than an EV could ever be.
Also, it is a far better short commute vehicle than any other PHEV.
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Old 10-31-2010, 09:36 AM   #76
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

This isn't really a response to anything except as a confirmation of what I've believed all along:
http://www8.nationalacademies.org/on...RecordID=12826

I think PHEV are fine but at the moment the batteries are too expensive to make them have an effective range so in the mean time, I feel a PHEV with a small battery used in "mixed mode" would be an ideal tradeoff. Mixed mode is where the car would run off the batteries in low speed city driving but when cruising on the highway, the engine comes on and does the majority of the work, then when you get off the highway, the car goes back into electric mode. Essentially trying to avoid using the engine to charge the battery like in a conventional hybrid but would still be using EV mode when it's most beneficial. No point in quickly draining the battery by driving on the highway when the most efficient and cost effective usage of that energy is for when you drive at low speeds. (Wiki article that confirmed/inspired this point of view)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PHEV#Modes_of_operation
-see mixed mode
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:40 PM   #77
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Beyond the intial excitement, both the Volt and Leaf are probably going to be flops like the Aztec and Edsel were.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:20 PM   #78
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Well, if that's true, then they'll be dirt cheap in a few years. Even an aged one with reduced electric range will do fine for my 3 mile commute.
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:34 PM   #79
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Yeah, I suppose they will sell at a big discount if they fail to gather sales.

I really don't care for either car. The Volt is too expensive and the Leaf probably will not make it all the way on my 70 mile roundtrip each day in the cold, snowy winters or hot, sunny summers to come.

Also, owning the Leaf is risky if you live where the power goes out on occasion. What do you tell your boss - I can't make it in to work today because I couldn't charge up my car? That is going to happen hundreds if not thousands of times. And since electricity demand is typically lower at night, the utilities choose this time to do maintenance on their power generating equipment. Guess what? More demand at night may lead to inadequate maintenance and power outages not related to weather.

The time will come for BEV's and BEV's with extended range - they're just not ready for prime time.

They will have their day in the sun when they cost the same or less than a comparable gasoline car and the cost to operate them - electricity, maintenance, etc is much lower than dinoburners can match.
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:37 PM   #80
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Re: Breaking news! Chevy volt technically driven by gas engine!

Americans or perhaps motorists everywhere do NOT use cold hard logic when making their vehicle selections. It is more about perceived things like ego stroking, conforming to the herd, family traditions, keeping up with the Joneses, having something to show off in at church, and as noted by biff, bringing a Sherman tank to a knife fight i.e. grandma's range anxiety (we see the same thing with the popularity of pickup and suv commuters- "being prepared" for the hauling/towing/crashing eventuality that rarely if ever comes). People have proven time and time again to be willing to pay HUUUGE premiums to have excess capability that may never be utilized.

I'm quite certain that GM has access to accurate vehicle use pattern numbers and more importantly, the psychology of the consumer, and they have the brains to evaluate that info, to come up with the most logical and widely applicable technical solution. I'd say the math and the psych points to Volt as being a good solution for many, but of course not all motorists, today.

That said, I'm not in the market for a Volt (or any other hybrid or EV) as my usage patterns don't fit that mold, and I'm not in the market for ANY $40k vehicle no matter how perfect it may be for me. I'm not going to pee all over Volt because of that.
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