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Old 07-31-2016, 04:47 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thorium-Synfuel View Post

How in the world will people adopt EVs when the price of electricity to recharge their cars is at an astronomical price?
Don't know about the cost of electricity where you live, but it takes about $5 worth of electricity to move a Tesla Model S 250 miles. That's like pay $1 a gallon for gas, if your car got 50mpg, which the majority of Prius owners are unable to do.
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:52 PM   #102
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I can see the health & environmental benefits of EV, it is the high initial cost, battery rental and poor range that are the problem.
Would you switch to a mobile phone that was kinder to the planet, but only had a 30 minute battery life after an overnight charge?!
Once the battery range is a couple hundred miles, and they can be swapped at petrol stations perhaps by driving into an automatic exchange machine, like a battery switching car wash, or fully charged in 5 minutes, then few people would be put off.
If the battery rental charge couldnt be removed, but covered the cost of these services....
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Old 08-01-2016, 07:15 AM   #103
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Yes Yorkshire gets bad snow, I was wondering how an EV would handle the snow? I should imagine pretty terribly as you can't select a higher gear, and you can't really feed the power, it's pretty instant. Saying that, some Teslas are AWD, so they might be better.
Most EVs have those eco, normal, sport modes like hybrids and other cars that change the accelerator sensitivity, and they also have traction control.

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That renting the battery has to be the biggest costing failure of electric vehicles.
For the monthly rental charge, you could fill up a decent hybrid or diesel all month. So you're paying a lot more for the vehicle and not saving on fuel - plus stuck with limited range. I wonder if old EVs have non-rental batteries - mievs etc?
I guess for the eco credentials or city parking and congestion breaks it may still be worthwhile for inner city driving, but an electic car must be more an ethical than a financial benefit.
Only Renault had the battery lease only. The others had it as an option, or not at all. Battery leasing helped sell cars when the batteries were more expensive, and people still worried more about the battery life. Still might be a deal for those driving lots of miles with a lot of quick charging.

I think Renault has seen the light and is moving away from battery lease only.

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Originally Posted by ChewChewTrain View Post
I agree. Forcing customers to rent the EV battery will be a failed business model. As long as 1 manufacturer, such as Tesla, doesn't require that other EV brands can't compete.

In 10 years, when they predict you'll want to replace the battery, that doesn't mean the battery will be be dead. One report claims the range will be 70% of original. Perhaps people will be happy with that shorter distance for local errands. Those that take better car of their batteries by only recharging to 80% capacity will retain even longer distances after 10 years.
For an EV, the industry calls the battery 'dead' when it is at 70% to 80% of its original capacity. For so owners, that could still mean they have the range for their needs.

For others that will need to replace it at that time, it means the battery isn't trash. The reduced capacity cells are usable for other applications, like the UPS of a cell tower. So the cost of the replacement battery will be defrayed by the value of the old one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benlovesgoddess View Post
I can see the health & environmental benefits of EV, it is the high initial cost, battery rental and poor range that are the problem.
Would you switch to a mobile phone that was kinder to the planet, but only had a 30 minute battery life after an overnight charge?!
Once the battery range is a couple hundred miles, and they can be swapped at petrol stations perhaps by driving into an automatic exchange machine, like a battery switching car wash, or fully charged in 5 minutes, then few people would be put off.
If the battery rental charge couldnt be removed, but covered the cost of these services....
Tesla has the battery swap tech. It can do one of their models in 90 seconds. There was one station at the midway point between L.A. and San Fransisco. The charge was about the cost to fill up an ICE Tesla competitor; $80. Tesla owners, which aren't people short on cash, chose to wait to use the Superchargers instead. Not just wait on charging, but wait for an available charger.

The big hurdle to battery swapping is that batteries aren't like a propane tank for the grill. The tanks that past inspection for reuse all hold the same amount of fuel. Swapped batteries, by their nature, can't be guaranteed to have the capacity and performance of the battery that was just turned in.

The business solution is to lease the battery, or the car, and having some minimum performance level on the battery swapped in. An Israel company was working with this model. They are no longer around.

In addition to the swap fee, You have to eventually get your original pack back with Tesla's swapping. If not done so by some time, Tesla will charge you for the new pack swapped in, minus the prorated value of your original pack.
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Old 08-01-2016, 10:08 AM   #104
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I've read a few reports and comparisons now, apparently buyers are better off financially if their current car does 55 UK MPG or less. I guess that's subjective, I don't know whether that includes depreciation, probably not.

According to a comment I saw on Nissan's Facebook page, the majority of owners actually opt to lease the battery now. If the battery capacity drops below 80% then its replaced for "free".
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Old 08-01-2016, 10:12 AM   #105
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According to a comment I saw on Nissan's Facebook page, the majority of owners actually opt to lease the battery now. If the battery capacity drops below 80% then its replaced for "free".
Being given a choice is good! Interesting stat, though.
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Old 08-01-2016, 01:29 PM   #106
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The only BEV with a battery lease option in the US is the smart ED. The car is $5000 less with the battery rental option. The rental fee is $80 a month with a guarantee of minimum battery performance. It includes an annual battery check, and free replacement if the pack fails. It is for ten years, and I hope you get the battery after that time.

It was a fair deal back when gas prices where higher; $80 would cover the premium gas the ICE fortwo would use in a typical American's month of driving.
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Old 08-01-2016, 01:46 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by trollbait View Post
The only BEV with a battery lease option in the US is the smart ED. The car is $5000 less with the battery rental option. The rental fee is $80 a month with a guarantee of minimum battery performance. It includes an annual battery check, and free replacement if the pack fails. It is for ten years, and I hope you get the battery after that time.

It was a fair deal back when gas prices where higher; $80 would cover the premium gas the ICE fortwo would use in a typical American's month of driving.
In that case, a $5k discount is very compelling. In 7 years $80 is typically worth 1/2 that in today's dollars.
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:08 PM   #108
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Having looked at the model S, it is a beautiful car - like a Jag or more like a Maserati. Way out of my price range, but maybe not when 5 years old...?!
Claims 300 miles, i could live with that. A car that nice, you could build your holidays around charging points...!
I have to say, it is a particularly desirable car - the environmental and economical benefits making it even sexier!
It really does salute the title of this thread though, as it would be hard to imagine a more expensive way of transporting yourself.
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:17 PM   #109
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I saw three Teslas last weekend, one was parked right outside my house but I forgot to take a picture. Tesla seem to be an exception, they are king of the BEV at the minute, but they will have to adapt and come up with fresh ideas, not just making the same car bigger, then smaller to suit people's needs. They are avoiding steep depreciation. The market will be flooded with EV's in the next few years, by 2025 it's predicted 50% of new car registrations will be for EV'S. No doubt by then, depreciation will be similar, if not better than an ice car.

You may think a Tesla is expensive, but if you pick up a second hand one for 50k, charge it at home and sell it a few years later, you will have saved enough on fossil fuels to break even with any depreciation really, you will have lost very little money, and if you compare the performance to a Super car, then it really can't be beaten. A bugatti Veyron costs about 200,000 a year to run and has a similar 0-60 time
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Old 08-01-2016, 02:28 PM   #110
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A bugatti Veyron costs about 200,000 a year to run and has a similar 0-60 time
A new set of Veyron tires will cost you US$40,000. Driving at maximum speed puts so much stress on the tires that they need to be changed out, even if they have plenty of tread left.

I read somewhere that it was cheaper for a Veyron owner to have his Veyron trucked while he flew in a Lear Jet to his destination.

There's someone on Fuelly that reports his Veyron MPG.
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