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Old 09-12-2008, 06:42 AM   #1
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9/11/2001, Never Forget

With the passing of 7 years since the worst attack on our nation it seems that many are forgetting that Islamic extremism is still at war with us as they were before the 9/11 attacks. Our nation failed to recognize the threat it faced ( Beriut military base bombing, USS Cole, US embassies bombings and the first WTC bombing) and now seems to be going back to sleep regarding this continuing threat.

One success as we first began to fight back after 9/11 was recognizing that the funders of Al Queda and other Islamic extremist groups were using the wealth they received from the sale of oil to the US to attack us. Our gov't took aggressive action against so-called Islamic charities to cut off some of the money flow but has failed to address the primary reason for this massive flow of our wealth to the Middle East; our lack of energy independence. This situation has worsened over time resulting in the increase of oil from $40/barrel up to ~$150/barrel.

The price increase enventually forced Americans to reduce consumption. Now free market forces of supply and demand have begun to reduce the price of oil and gasoline at the pump. The President rescinding the Executive Order banning offshore drilling resulted in an immediate large reduction in oil price as even the potential of America tapping more into its own large oil reserves forced down the oil futures prices. This illustrates the power of positive actions such as conservation and begining to articulate strategic steps towards reducing US energy dependence on enemy oil.

My primary motivation for reducing my personal gasoline consumption is that it is an effective way to strike back against our enemies. We are blessed to live in a free, tolerant and peace-loving nation. Our enemies seeks to destroy this and will never stop until they are defeated. We must maintain our resolve to fight back in every way that we can and sustain our efforts on military, diplomatic, cultural and economic fronts. Whatever your motivation, I appreciate the efforts, ingenuity and creativity of the members of this forum to reduce our energy dependence on enemy oil. Thank you for doing your part in the War on Terror. Never forget the lessons of 9/11.
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:14 AM   #2
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I agree with some of the things you said, but I don't believe the best option for us is to try and defeat the extremists who gladly sacrifice their lives to attack the US. Increasing our presence and fighting in the mideast will only anger them more. It is impossible to defeat this enemy and we are now paying for 60 years of terrible foreign policy in the mideast. I thought that maybe 9/11 would finally be the wake up call and people would realize we need to change our actions in the mideast, but it seems we have reacted exactly as they hoped and have made no improvements in the aftermath.

I would much rather not have enemies who hate us and seek our destruction than send even more troops and waste even more lives and money and go try and fight this unwinnable war.
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:29 AM   #3
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They want power, they want control. Hate is just something they use to cover up the ideology. Pawns fly the planes, carry the bombs. They are at war with everyone that isn't cowering under their threats and actions.

Wake up calls are only picked up by the few. Before, during, and after, we live under the protection of those that serve whether we believe that we're in danger or not. Generally, most don't recognize the sacrifice of those until it is politically correct to do so, as it is now.

I will never forget what happened on September 11th.
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:16 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low&slow View Post
With the passing of 7 years since the worst attack on our nation it seems that many are forgetting that Islamic extremism is still at war with us as they were before the 9/11 attacks. Our nation failed to recognize the threat it faced ( Beriut military base bombing, USS Cole, US embassies bombings and the first WTC bombing) and now seems to be going back to sleep regarding this continuing threat.
Maybe so. And I have sympathy for those who were directly harmed by the 9/11 attacks. However, it has been the almost totally botched US response to 9/11 that really is the lasting legacy, not the direct harm caused by 9/11 itself.

I will never forget that 9/11 was the excuse used to invade Iraq (a country that reliable reports did, and still do, show had next to nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks).

I will never forget that 9/11 was used as an excuse to severely erode constitutional protections for US citizens, all in the name of "security".

I will never forget that right after 9/11 other governments were offering their help to the US to track down the culprits. However, the US chose to invade an uninvolved country , vs using the international good will to track down the international criminals actually responsible for 9/11 (thereby totally squandering that international good will).

I will never forget that the actions of our president (in part made possible by playing on 9/11 fears of the public) have resulted in record deficits, when we had a balanced budget going into that presidency. And this financial loss to the country will hurt our children for many years to come.

I will never forget that 9/11 was used as an excuse for the US to have government sponsored torture of prisoners. While some might say the people they were dealing with deserved such treatment, that assumes that nobody was picked up in error. And even if everyone involved did "deserve it" (and the sketchy evidence to date suggests some innocents were caught in that web), the torture combined with no due process makes it really hard for the US to claim it's citizens shouldn't be treated equally badly when they are detained by various foreign governments. i.e. this US government hypocrisy has made it much more dangerous for US citizens traveling in foreign lands.

I will never forget that 9/11 was used as a justification to spy on anyone the government wanted to, without any court oversight, simply by claiming (with no proof required) that it was a "terrorist investigation".

I will never forget the harm this administration's private war has been causing to our military's ability to defend out lands against real threats we might face. Simply put, the military is stretched too thin.

I will never forget that we have lost more people in the Iraq war, which was due solely to the administration using 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq, than we actually lost in the 9/11 attacks themselves!

And I will never forget how much the Iraq war (again, a war started as a result of the president using 9/11 as an excuse for his own agendas) has stretched our military to the breaking point, making US citizens much less safe should we actually be attacked by some other source (which could happen at any time).

I will never forget that those "weapons of mass destruction" not only haven't been found, but there is now evidence that some of the "evidence" the administration used (to claim they were there) was actually fabricated!

And I won't even forget that Iraq's government publicly condemned the 9/11 attacks, before they were later used as an excuse to invade Iraq itself.

All of this sure reminds me of the novel "1984" and the movie "Wag the Dog". The trouble is, it is the world we live in.

And the harms this administration has caused to our society are likely to last for many years to come. And as bad as 9/11 was (around 3000 people losing their life, large property damage, and a "loss of innocence"), it pales compared to the damage caused by the government using 9/11 as an excuse to do things that they never would have gotten away with without being able to constantly bring up the fear of 9/11.

Quote:
Originally Posted by low&slow View Post
One success as we first began to fight back after 9/11 was recognizing that the funders of Al Queda and other Islamic extremist groups were using the wealth they received from the sale of oil to the US to attack us. Our gov't took aggressive action against so-called Islamic charities to cut off some of the money flow but has failed to address the primary reason for this massive flow of our wealth to the Middle East; our lack of energy independence.
Following the money of extremists should be the work of police departments tracking "white color crime". The administration totally failed to take that approach, and instead turned this into just another war of "us vs. them". As a result, we have failed to make ourselves more secure, failed to deal with the root cause of the issue, and caused massive damage to our own well being.

And you are correct that our lack of energy independence is one cause for our insecurity. And I am a hypermiler here, and often try to do my small part by using my energy more efficiently. However, I will never forget that dealing with energy independence was one of the (many) things that this administration put aside in its thirst to use 9/11 for its own agendas!

But then again, some would call me a "liberal", if only because I feel we should THINK about what the consequences of our actions are, and try to address the causes of our problems. i.e. I don't believe (as some neo-conservatives are so fond of doing) that we should just deal with the current symptoms of a problem (while ignoring the long term consequences) and therefore have some knee-jerk reaction to the next crisis (so it looks like you are "doing something", even if you are making the underlying problem WORSE).
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:47 AM   #5
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DracoFelis,

You took the words right out of my keyboard!
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:17 PM   #6
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DracoFelis,

i won't call you or anyone else a liberal for that belief, however...

that view irritates me because it puts the blame squarely on one man. one man, who acted ALONE? puleeeeeze!

what that view fails to mention is:

1)the military/intelligence cuts of the previous administration
2)the failed, giftwrapped receipt of the 9/11 mastermind(more than once) by the previous administration
3)our democratic vote on the war
4)22, YES, 22 resolutions giving PLENTY of time to get WMDs out/hidden
5)the lack of CIA/FBI communication
6)pathetic, lethargic airport(and other) security
7)proof of chemicals of the warfare type
8)Sadam gassed(killed) his own countrymen previously
9)eye witness(military and scientists) accounts of Sadam's relentless plan to create long range WMDs
10)the lack of positive Iraqi feedback
11)incompetance as far back as the Carter administration
12)OIL, yes oil, so what? we spend more on foreign oil than the war in iraq. we are forced to make THEIR oil OUR business since we cannot drill domestically.

i could go on.

i wasn't going to post in this thread, but i think(and hope) we are about "fair and balanced" here correct?

http://obsessionthemovie.com/
very diverse POV(not propoganda)

i know people that have been affect by 9/11 and the subsequential wars. i know intimate details about these historical events so i understand more than most. therefore, in honor of friends that have passed on, i will argue this issue no longer.

YES, let's not forget!
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Old 09-14-2008, 08:40 PM   #7
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DracoFelis,

The US gov't response to 911 has not perfect but I must strongly disagree with your many complaints.
1. Iraq allowed AL Queda trtaining and hosted ameeting with Mohammed Atta before 9/11/2001. Irregardless the US invaded Iraq before they violated numerous UN resolutions to allow weapons inspectors in. Iraq had used mustard gas and nerve agents in other wars and had a large biological weapons program . It was put up or shut up time and in my opinion, the initial action to invade Irag was correct. Their direct involvement in the 9/11 attacks was not the primary motivation nor was the presence of WMDs.
2. what loss of constitutional rights have we lost? there have always been provisions for surveillance with probable cause. I am unaware of any innocent party being unfairly prosecuted and I would challenge you to name one.
3. what country offered to help track down the 9/11 perpetrtors? Islamic nations had crowds celebrating the 9/11 attacks in the streets. Our socalled friends and allies have provided minimal support and apparently prefer to appease terrorists rather fight back. Diplomacy and the UN are total failures in enforcing resolutions on rogue nations.
4. If you think the war on terror is expensive, try the price being a sitting duck for attack after attack. The economy was already in severe decline with the .com bust and was hammered by 9/11.

5. Yes , we lost more of our armed forces lives in the war on terror but at least we are now taking the war to enenmies in Iraq and Afganistan. This action and improved Intelligence sharing and your hated surveillance have prevented a major action here in the Homeland on unarmed innocent civivlians. The war in Iraq has had the effect of drawing Al Queda to fight our troops there in their holy land rather sitting like sheep waiting for the next attack in NYC of DC. Compared to other wars we have fought that never involved an attack on the Homeland our losses are small ( Viet Nam, Korean Conflict) The cost of continued liberty and safety in our homeland isn't free.
While I hate the loss of every single American soldier, they were heroes fighting for us and their sacrifice was not in vain.
6. As far the WMDs, large caches of Chemical and Biological weapons haven't been recovered. But 550 tons of yellowcvake uranium were found and were recently removed from Iraq. Also ~ 600 artillery shells containing sarin gas were found. Iraq had a long proven history of making and using chemical and biological weapons , but that was still not the primary reason we invaded Iraq. THey wouldn't allow the inspections that were mandated after they were defeated in the first Gulf War and this is what brought on our attack. If they had nothing to hide why didn't they cooperate?
7. You are right to be concerned about propoganda and brainwashing but it seems to me you are sprouting the misinformation of the anti-Bush media and the blame-America-firsters without looking at the facts.
You seem like an intelligent person, I would recommend you do some real fact-checking on all these topics. I was once a brain-washed liberal also until I began to do my own research and found that many important facts are given minimal attention or deliberately ignored or misrepresented.
God Bless you and God bless America.
Vic
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