A Polluted Future? - Page 4 - Fuelly Forums

Android Users - Coming Soon! - Migrating from aCar 4.8 to 5.0

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-16-2008, 06:52 AM   #31
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 27
Country: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
So if we are done complaining about our own injuries and can take a break from pandering to the "call everyone a commie or government agent" bandwagon (and patting ourselves on the back), then what IS your position on slavery and child labor laws? Will you say that some other country did it too so it is ok? That other countries are currently doing it? Do you even care what the people want if it has nothing to do with money?
My position on slavery is that it is wrong. I'd support ending slavery in Mauritania, Niger, Chad, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Yeah, that's not a misprint, those places have slavery, including sexual slavery of children.

How it's done is not through military force but through more indirect means.

Child labor is a touchy question. Very young kids, like under ten, are simply too young to work effectively. They aren't efficient and it wouldn't be fair to the kids. Please note the order of priorities, Skewbie, as I am not their parents. I'm someone who'd at most be in a position to hire them. I wouldn't do it.

Older kids ought to be allowed to have work. They can learn the skills needed to get along with others, to respect authority without being obsequious and most of all, to show up for work on time, focus on their tasks and do a good job.

Given that, they ought to have limitations on work so that they can attend school or be homeschooled. I also think that Apprenticeships ought to be encouraged and that child labor laws could discourage such forms of education.

I might add, for your benefit, that child labor laws are not as strictly enforced for children who work in agriculture. Whether you know this or not, Skewbie, agricultural work is the most hazardous sort of employment in the US. More dangerous than coal mining, which thanks to regulation (I'm not against ALL regulation) has been drastically made safer. So apparently the powers that be are not really worried about children's safety - more likely we can look to the originators of child labor laws, who were labor activists who hoped to drive up the costs of labor. Kids work cheap.


What happens in other nations is not the concern of the United States. We are not the world's policeman. We had no business being in Iraq, the Balkans, Korea or even in the former Axis nations. I'm not a pacifist but I am not into Imperialism either.


You ask me if I care what people want if it doesn't have to do with money?

I work making electronic devices that save energy. I'm proud of my work, which is reasonably challenging, sufficiently dangerous as to not be boring and very rewarding that I'm saving energy and opening up business ventures that would not be possible otherwise.

In my off hours I work with embedded controllers - strictly as a hobby - write and want to start martial arts. I share my results with my peers without expectation or desire of profit.

I'm also gunning to return to Graduate School, to complete my studies in mathematics. My employer has already agreed in principle to pay for my studies and we both hope I can do even more work for them in the future using skills that I will work for and for which they will pay.

On the other hand, I do not like being bossed around by busy bodies who do not work for a living satisfying consumer needs, who presume to tell me how to live my life, and who think that they have the unalienable right to steward every one of the Earth's resources.

Such an attitude smacks of Aristocracy. It's offensive to me personally, professionally and morally.

I think I do much more than average bear to save scarce resources. Enough.

Gene
__________________

GeneW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 07:43 AM   #32
Registered Member
 
skewbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 771
Country: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneW View Post
However since you broached the topic, do you believe in Gaia?
An interesting question, depends how you define "life" I recon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneW View Post
Wow, you want perfection.
See, I get it from both ends here, you point to ussr/china failing to protect the environment as proof positive that laws don't work.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneW View Post
No. You face it. Selling one's mother would appall most customers, who'd refuse to buy from you.
Most, but not all. Some customers (ok, almost everyone, myself included)buy services that pollute everyones environment. Just because the market allows it doesn't make it right. Plenty of mothers were sold into slavery in the slave market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneW View Post
The Market is solely concerned about what people want.
Again, only where there is money to be made. Government has to intervene when peoples rights are at risk. Unfortunately our government has been more interested in removing peoples rights lately. Polluting isn't a right, no, but we have lost a lot of liberty in the past 8 years I will grant you that.
__________________

__________________
Standard Disclaimer
skewbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 08:49 AM   #33
Registered Member
 
psyshack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 443
Country: United States
Skewbe

What do you do besides preach to the choir or piss in the wind to help with energy or pollution.

I have a pretty good idea what Gene does.

I work with boilers, chillers, pumps, there subsets and controls. http://www.2boonesales.com/

Eff. in operation, power consumption, maint. are all major concerns. One project we were involved in is the only to date full co-gen plant in the world for a property in down town Tulsa. A local hospital has broke ground on the newest full co-gen plant in the world. Its pretty slick how these plants work. While many will have bits and parts of a co-gen plant. None but Williams Co. have the full package. St. Francis hospital will only be the second in the world.

Ive built one house with eco stuff in mind. Solar panels, house powered over all by 3 phase power, free air cooling when useful. Heat recovery for supplemental heating of hot water. And other niffy features. I took none of the possible green credits tax wise when I did it. And at some point I will apply a few tricks to this old house I live in now.

And be very clear about this. This stuff cost lots of money. BIG MONEY. And it wont get cheaper. So while wearing a sweater maybe a good answer. Its only part of it. And one can over insulate. You can end up with a sick building very fast. It happens a lot more in homes than commercial building. Most folks have no idea what free air cooling is. And what kind of air turn overs and exchanges that are needed to keep a building healthy.

Its funny. The home I own now was coal heated when it was built. The fire place is a coal hearth unit. The fire place is very shallow with a huge flue. The goall in such a setup is radiant heat. The coal that was burned was strip mined but a few miles from here. Then the home went to NG free standing fire for heat in most rooms with the fire place being retro fitted for NG radiant heat. Then came the floor furnace. I replaced that with a NG/AC high eff. package unit at the time. Its life cycle is coming to a close in the next few years. At that point I will take it to a new level. So just in the years since my home was built. Its fuel foot print has got better. And the house much safer.

So what are you doing skewbe?
__________________
09 HCHII, w/Navi
07 Mazda3 S Touring, 5MT
Mild Hypermiler or Mad Man?
psyshack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 09:50 AM   #34
Registered Member
 
skewbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 771
Country: United States
I do things like, insulating, hypermiling, efficient windows, efficient appliances, watching how much energy I use, buying locally grown foods, paying extra for sustainable energy sources.

However, it isn't preaching to say that the market only protects the interests of those with money, just a statement of fact that some people have trouble with.
__________________
Standard Disclaimer
skewbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 12:34 PM   #35
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 27
Country: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
An interesting question, depends how you define "life" I recon.
I was kidding around. Your religion is your own business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
See, I get it from both ends here, you point to ussr/china failing to protect the environment as proof positive that laws don't work.
I need to be more clear here - laws CAN work. They don't necessarily work.

The tragedy of the USSR demonstrated, at least to my satisfaction, that centralizing decision making power and denying ordinary people a stake or sense of ownership, leads to indifference.

It's not enough to have a "voice". You need to have an interest. You need to have a personal reason to involve yourself. You need to have ownership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
Most, but not all. Some customers (ok, almost everyone, myself included)buy services that pollute everyones environment. Just because the market allows it doesn't make it right. Plenty of mothers were sold into slavery in the slave market.
We can say the very same thing about the law, Skewbie. The law used to say that owning people was a right. The Dred Scott decision cleared that one up nicely. Today two million people are in jail, many for victimless crimes. Since 1945 no President has declared war, but the Congress is supposed to do so before we start hostilities.

There isn't even a consensus upon what is "good" and "bad" in some cases about sales. There are people in the US who feel that selling guns is selling murder. There are people who feel that selling guns is empowering people. Which is true? What about liquor, high fat foods, pornography or books on making drugs, poisons or bombs? How about drugs themselves? Legal and illegal drugs.

You come to me and say that the market won't necessarily work. I come back and say that a system that denies the market, the USSR, failed to protect the health of the Russian people. They had no stake in the system but they were allowed to petition the government, hold demonstrations and vote. That's all we're allowed to do over here with our government. Aside the KGB and some social organizations all that differs for us is that we can hold property. For now.

I might add that the Soviets had pollution standards. Their microwave standards were tougher than US standards. They simply chose not to enforce their own laws. Who could make them?

You think we the people run this show? Really? How did President Gore do on 9/11 Skewbie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
Again, only where there is money to be made.
Not exactly. Sometimes business people will sell at a loss or to barely break even. I've seen this happen, especially when the owner has alternate agendas.

I have to ask - what's wrong with making money? You make it sound like these transactions are tainted by commerce.

Do you think that government actions are altruistic and as pure as the driven snow? Sure I've seen decent bureaucrats. I've had IRS agents give me honest advice and be helpful.

I've also seen horrific things done by governments. Go look up "Operation Phoenix". When you're done with that, go google "White Hand" in conjunction with latin America.

Heck, take a look at the Dresden firebombings. We didn't need to do it, we just wanted to impress the Soviets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
Government has to intervene when peoples rights are at risk. Unfortunately our government has been more interested in removing peoples rights lately. Polluting isn't a right, no, but we have lost a lot of liberty in the past 8 years I will grant you that.
Sometimes, Skewbie, people have to stand up for themselves. Sometimes good does not always prevail.

You mentioned Mr. Bush's excesses. How did you feel about seventeen kids dying at Mt. Carmel at Waco TX in 1992?

We could debate endlessly about the leadership of the Branch Davidians, but what would you do after the government shut off your electricity (and hence your well water) and subjected you to fifty days of "softening" to get you to quit?

No electricity. No water. Constant psychological pressure. For fifty days. Could you handle it, Skewbie? If you were taught about the apocalypse would not you feel that the forces of satan were at work? Would you surrender to satan?

We hear about how the CIA tortures suspected terrorists. Funny how people forget how the FBI used sounds of rabbit slaughter, chanting monks, irregular spot lighting and other "tricks" to "break down the resistance" of the Davidians.

Finally, exasperated by Howell's games, the FBI pumped in tear gas, including using "pyrotechnic" charges. A fire soon followed. We know that the FBI alerted local hospitals to expect burn casualties before they started gassing.

All but nineteen Davidians died. All of the children died.

I didn't support the Davidians. I thought that Vernon Howell was a first class narcissist and fool. Somehow in my occasional visits to the law library in Pittsburgh I never saw a Federal death penalty for being foolish or narcissistic.

Even to this day people remember four students shot at Kent State. Twenty times that number died at Waco under a Federal siege. A lot of the same people who shrugged off Waco in 1992 today complain about George Bush.

I brought up Waco because I don't really see too much difference between Clinton and Bush.


$10,000 dollar question about pollution. How much is too much? How much waste can be processed by the Earth's life processes and weather? How much will never be processed by the Earth's life processes, and weather?

The world does handle SOME pollution. How much? How much can the world take?

These questions need to be asked before we start regulating or suing or forcing objections. To insist upon "zero pollution" is impossible. To make people pay because they generate more than zero pollution is insulting.

Gene
GeneW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 12:56 PM   #36
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 27
Country: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
I do things like, insulating, hypermiling, efficient windows, efficient appliances, watching how much energy I use, buying locally grown foods, paying extra for sustainable energy sources.
I have this feeling, Skewbie, that you're an academic. I figure a college student, school teacher or some kind of soft science type. You rgue like one, for sure.

There's nothing wrong with doing that for a living, but I think those of us who are out there every day helping to save energy, who are multiplying our efforts, deserve some credit. Maybe more credit than I think we get from people who are "in the movement".

Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
However, it isn't preaching to say that the market only protects the interests of those with money, just a statement of fact that some people have trouble with.
Most of us do have money. We vote with our decisions to spend. We reward and punish firms which serve us.

I punished Ford, GM and Chysler for making junky, inefficient small vehicles that need NASA techs to service. I rewarded Toyota for making an affordable and fuel efficient vehicle. I paid them.

I have trouble with your occasional oblique citations of class warfare. "Have money" means that these people are wealthy and influential.

You mean like Maurice Strong, the Rockefeller Family, the Kennedys or others who support "environmentalism" with a strongly coercive flavor? Those kind of folks?

How about good old Al "occidental oil" Gore? Winner of the Nobel Peace prize and a major shareholder of Occidental stock he got off of his father? Good old "Carbon Credits" Gore, who buys indulgences from the carbon traders so he can have that big old mansion in Tennessee.

Gene
GeneW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 03:04 PM   #37
Registered Member
 
skewbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 771
Country: United States
Was there a point in all that rambling? I don't get paid to sit through these sort of infomercials you know
__________________
Standard Disclaimer
skewbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 05:09 PM   #38
Registered Member
 
skewbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 771
Country: United States
We are getting sidetracked here, we've somehow touched on about every subject under the sun, LOL.

Look, we can go back and forth saying and/or making up stuff about what a great job we are doing. Or throwing out examples that demonstrate any position you might want to take on any subject. To me, it is a question of principle, and that is really the only thing worth debating in a forum such as this, the rest is not going to lead us anywhere.

For this thread, the theme is pollution and energy choices/options. Well, are there any guiding principles beyond rudimentary survival instinct that we can agree on?

I don't believe pollution should be accepted as-is. As stated before, and as yet unchallenged, pollution is wrong for everyone else, everywhere else. It devalues the quality of peoples environment, and is typically done in the name of making or saving a buck. Don't get me wrong, make a buck if you can, but be principled about it. If I wanted to save money on garbage stickers by throwing my trash over the fence, the law would intervene. It would be far better for me to work on making less garbage anyway, and having exhausted those options then seek relief. The difference here is a matter of scale, as well as the concentration of money/power in the case of industrial pollution and pressure to keep prices low by consumers.

Do I live by this to the letter? Absolutely not. There are a few folks who have though and that is inspiring. Do I know what the right thing to do is? Absolutely, and it has nothing to do with money.
__________________
Standard Disclaimer
skewbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 09:09 PM   #39
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 27
Country: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
For this thread, the theme is pollution and energy choices/options. Well, are there any guiding principles beyond rudimentary survival instinct that we can agree on?

I've already demonstrated counter examples, that adhering strictly to regulation is questionable and possibly even counterproductive.

You, in turn, can't seem to get your mind out of the 1920s. It's O-V-E-R, Skewbe.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
I don't believe pollution should be accepted as-is. As stated before, and as yet unchallenged, pollution is wrong for everyone else, everywhere else. It devalues the quality of peoples environment, and is typically done in the name of making or saving a buck. Don't get me wrong, make a buck if you can, but be principled about it. If I wanted to save money on garbage stickers by throwing my trash over the fence, the law would intervene. It would be far better for me to work on making less garbage anyway, and having exhausted those options then seek relief. The difference here is a matter of scale, as well as the concentration of money/power in the case of industrial pollution and pressure to keep prices low by consumers.
I think we can "tolerate" a certain level of pollution. We do so now and have done so for ages.


Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
Do I live by this to the letter? Absolutely not. There are a few folks who have though and that is inspiring. Do I know what the right thing to do is? Absolutely, and it has nothing to do with money.
In other words, money is no object?

Gene
GeneW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2008, 09:17 PM   #40
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 27
Country: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
We are getting sidetracked here, we've somehow touched on about every subject under the sun, LOL.
On the contrary, Skewbie, Jeff and I have shown our "bona fides". We both work to save energy.

I am not at liberty to name my employer. I can answer, in considerable depth, what I do for a living and how I save energy for industry.

Many times more energy than someone who buys "green energy" and organic veggies.

So, once again, let's hear it. What are you DOING to save the planet?

Gene
__________________

GeneW is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Just a quick question about how fuelly calculates my mpg astrasxicdti General Fuel Topics 13 01-25-2011 09:55 PM
eco reset resulting in higher mileage?? LxMike General Fuel Topics 17 08-27-2007 05:41 AM
SuperMID installation - help needed! landspeed General Fuel Topics 47 06-03-2007 02:15 PM
inventor of the ScanGauge MetroMPG Hypermiling 25 02-21-2007 06:56 PM
Fixed Gear DirtyOldTown People Powered 7 07-04-2006 07:05 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.