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Old 07-25-2008, 04:56 PM   #51
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The breaks aren't the reason for the profits, but royalities to the government for drilling on federal land is, and should be, a normal price of doing business. I don't want the government, and thus the public, screwed out of these fees, as in the past, do to the panic.
that's right, the tax breaks aren't the reason for their profits (as many are stating) it's the rise in demand. more demand equals more sales thus higher profit, albeit not a big rise in their profits.

again, measures can be put in place to ensure that the government is not screwed out of the fees.

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Now, keeping it in domestic markets isn't going to help keeping money out of terrorist pockets. If we don't address our growing demand, world oil prices will stay high. Doesn't matter where the money comes from to people who mean us harm.

http://www.businessweek.com/
it may not keep ALL of the oil money out of terrorist hands but it will keep ALL OIL MONEY FROM THE US out of terrorists hands. the point here is to ensure that the US does not spend a dime indirectly sponsoring terrorism. terrorists will still get sponsorship from their middle eastern countries but at the least the money will not come from the US.

an increase in world supply will reduce oil prices. that is again the law of supply and demand which many of you are still not accepting. increase supply will result in lower prices ON ANY COMMODITY!


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We do need oil for other things, building the infrastructure for oil alternatives being one of them, and older fields will be declining. So we might as well start now. But to address prices now, we have to address the oil market.
again, you guys that are against drilling for domestic oil are still not accepting that fact that WE SHOULD START building up the infrastructure for alternative energy BUT it can not be done while we are sending $700 billion a year overseas. we should drill for more domestic oil to replace what we are importing while we build up alternative energy.

Again, stop overlooking the fact that alternative energy can replace oil faster than we can drill domestically. we need to do both and do it right now.

there is absolutely no reason that can cancel the fact that we still are and we will continue to spend over $700 billion a year importing oil. oil that can be replaced by domestic drilling. that will in turne replace the amount of oil that the US is using from the world market and thus increasing supply. again, it's the simple but universal law of supply and demand. the US takes 30% of the world's oil production, replace that 30% with domestic drilling of oil and natural gas and what do you get? an increase in global supply of oil that will DRASTICALLY REDUCE oil prices.

no one, not Nancy Pelosi or Harry REid or Al Gore, can dispute the law of supply and demand. oddly enough Nancy and Harry are still intent on releasing oil from the strategic oil reserve which they claim would reduce oil prices. that very same argument is about supply and demand, the only problem is, 70 million barrels from the STO will not affect the global demand of 83 million barrels per day! Nancy and Harry are arguing that we should release the light sweet crude and replace with heavy crude that's harder to refine. release the oil that would need to be replaced with oil that is harder for us to refine....yeah, Nancy and Harry will make great economists....NOT!
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Old 07-25-2008, 07:48 PM   #52
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Great posts, Civic_matic.

Oil is the fuel of freedom for people. If governments can control it, they can control the people.

Funny thing, well, it's not funny, but I have always brought up the problem that reducing fuel consumption would produce for the government: a reduction in tax revenue. So, some are currently proposing more taxes, a large percentage increase, on each gallon of gas and diesel.

Just the Bush announcement caused the market prices to decrease. I'm looking forward to $4 a gallon diesel in my future.
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Old 07-25-2008, 09:20 PM   #53
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Great posts, Civic_matic.

Oil is the fuel of freedom for people. If governments can control it, they can control the people.

Funny thing, well, it's not funny, but I have always brought up the problem that reducing fuel consumption would produce for the government: a reduction in tax revenue. So, some are currently proposing more taxes, a large percentage increase, on each gallon of gas and diesel.

Just the Bush announcement caused the market prices to decrease. I'm looking forward to $4 a gallon diesel in my future.
yup, and that group that's proposing an increas in gas tax is the same group that is skirting the gas tax in Colorado! the DNC was getting tax free gas in Colorado (Denver to be exact) while they opposed the suggestion of a gas tax holiday and have proposed an increase in the gas tax as well.

they are really looking out for the people! LOL!
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Old 07-25-2008, 11:06 PM   #54
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There is so much pro-oil propaganda in this thread it's disgusting. I simply don't have the time to debunk it, so I won't, but instead I will suggest that replacement forms of energy are only half of the picture. Conservation provides immediate returns that are real, and not nearly as harmful as simply burning more oil, coal, or nuclear.

It's pretty sad that people like Al Gore can't convincingly lead by example in that respect, but that doesn't make the point any less valid.

There are still MILLIONS of pickups and SUVs on the road today in this country that regularly only carry just one person around most of the time. When this trend finally stops, then you can talk to me about opening up more drilling. Until then, it's just exploiting resources to continue a ridiculous pattern of waste.
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Old 07-26-2008, 05:19 AM   #55
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There is so much pro-oil propaganda in this thread it's disgusting. I simply don't have the time to debunk it, so I won't, but instead I will suggest that replacement forms of energy are only half of the picture. Conservation provides immediate returns that are real, and not nearly as harmful as simply burning more oil, coal, or nuclear.

It's pretty sad that people like Al Gore can't convincingly lead by example in that respect, but that doesn't make the point any less valid.

There are still MILLIONS of pickups and SUVs on the road today in this country that regularly only carry just one person around most of the time. When this trend finally stops, then you can talk to me about opening up more drilling. Until then, it's just exploiting resources to continue a ridiculous pattern of waste.
I has nothing to do with "pro oil". You've got to recognize the difference. But it is "pro me" and "pro my kids".

I conserve. I work very hard, and have worked very hard, to watch my budget.

I don't see any people "against oil" working hard to reduce their use of plastics or nylon or other petroleum products and the like. I don't really care so much what they do, but oil is the fuel for economies. My kids don't need to live in an age where their choices are determined by lack of opportunity in my country. This kind of ideology is not done in other countries.

As for a pattern of waste. Yeah, again, back to Gore.

And whole off shore drilling thing isn't about reducing waste or controlling it. It's a socialist opportunity for control. Break free.
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Old 07-26-2008, 05:39 AM   #56
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There is so much pro-oil propaganda in this thread it's disgusting. I simply don't have the time to debunk it, so I won't, but instead I will suggest that replacement forms of energy are only half of the picture. Conservation provides immediate returns that are real, and not nearly as harmful as simply burning more oil, coal, or nuclear.

It's pretty sad that people like Al Gore can't convincingly lead by example in that respect, but that doesn't make the point any less valid.

There are still MILLIONS of pickups and SUVs on the road today in this country that regularly only carry just one person around most of the time. When this trend finally stops, then you can talk to me about opening up more drilling. Until then, it's just exploiting resources to continue a ridiculous pattern of waste.
What you may have not noticed is that those who are supporting drilling in this thread are also supporting alternative energy. There is no one alternative energy available now to serve our immediate needs on any kind of scale that oil now serves. The increase in oil will reduce prices now, send less money to terrorist supporting states, and support our own economy. Those are benefits we can enjoy right now.

While we've increased drilling and production of oil we can also be working on alternative energy, and the means to produce and distribute it economically. I also think that no one alternative can replace oil on the scale we are using it currently. If we combined the efforts of all alternative energies we can make a difference. This includes coal (we're sitting on mountains of it, literally), nuclear, solar, wind, hydroelectric, ethanol (from all sources, not just corn), and hydrogen. I think the most important part is to break our dependence on energy from foreign sources. Our energy imports account for a large part of our trade defecit.

Conservation is a good short term measure, but that alone will not solve our problems. Lee Iacocca once said in the 80's that if everyone drove a K car we would not be dependent on foreign oil. Well the fact of the matter is that small vehicles are not suited to everyone. This is a free country and people are free to choose the type of vehicle that fits their needs. This isn't like the USSR was where you had to save up for years to buy a car, and then when you finally did have the money there were only 1 or 2 models to choose from. Imagine if you went to buy a car and your choices were the white Yugo, or the black Yugo...

As far as the millions of pickups and SUV's on the roads now? That's our fault. We as consumers chose those vehicles, so the manufacturers built them and sold them to us. GM closed several car lines and converted them to make trucks & SUV's in the late 90's because that's what people were buying.

My point is that the answer isn't just drill more, its drill more and work on bringing alternative energy to market.
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Old 07-26-2008, 09:59 AM   #57
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But here is where I take the greatest exception to the 'more drilling' argument: I choose to conserve so that we don't end up with more oil rigs scattered about our wilderness and coastal areas. I choose to conserve so that I don't have to breath air so heavily polluted with benzene, sulfur dioxide, ozone, and a multitude of other hazardous VOCs. When that demand requires further spoiling the world environment THAT I HAVE NO CHOICE ABOUT LIVING IN, it most certainly IS my right to say 'no more'.

This is my planet too. You can talk about rights and freedom all you want, and I have just as many counter arguments as to how exercising the right to drive oversized vehicles for little practical reason is an afront to MY rights. It's little more than saying one's right to poison others outweighs the right of others not to be poisoned. 'Choice' in that regard is akin to choosing to assault the rest of the world or not. So just don't go there.

I know the majority of folks on here are pro-conservation, or at least say that they are, but how many of you still driving a pickup or SUV on a regular basis really NEED to drive it so regularly? I have had two cars parked in my driveway, only moved briefly for washing and brief startups/battery maintenance, for over a month now because I have embraced a better way for us environmentally, financially, and healthwise. Obviously not everybody can exercise that same course of action, but again, all one need do is count the number of single driver SUVs and pickups on the road with absolutely no cargo in them. Until such a sight becomes the rare exception instead of the rule, I say keep your drills in your pants.

The conservation argument also goes much further than driving more efficient vehicles, driving less, or using CFLs. It includes better building standards - requiring efficient designs that do NOT increase costs to build such as street and building orientation. It includes making use of re-useable bags when grocery shopping. It includes recycling every last bit of material you can from your household waste - and reducing the use of materials that cannot be recycled. It includes growing at least a small portion of one's own food. (On less than 200 sq. ft. of soil, we currently have a supply of more vegetables than our family of 5 will be able to eat for the next 3 months - and we can and will grow virtually all year round with a little bit of greenhousing.) It includes getting children engaged in outdoor entertainment instead of sitting around with a few hundred watts of TV, computer, and game equipment running half the day while they sit in the air conditioning.

I could go on, but SUV and pickup waste is just a small slice of our problem with energy use, and increasing the supply of energy is not the answer. It is our tendency as humans to take advantage of greater supply by using more. So I call BS on the argument that we need to increase supply. We don't. People can and will recognize their waste as supply drops and costs go up. Continuing to feed into the fantasy that there is more oil out there only continues to allow our society to ignore the futility of our wasteful ways.

The great thing about our species is it's ability to innovate. Whomever said that necessity is the mother of invention was not a fool. Those who ignore the necessity to change our ways however, most certainly are.
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Old 07-26-2008, 02:45 PM   #58
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no one, not Nancy Pelosi or Harry REid or Al Gore, can dispute the law of supply and demand.
and they'll continue to do so until they realize the threat of losing votes for next term. and in Al's case, the threat of losing GW speeches.

but these knuckleheads are not out in the real world paying more for gas, groceries, and cosumer goods 'cause everything's given to them!

does anyone remember when 'stretch' pelosi first made speaker? well, she asked tax payers to pay for a new, larger private jet for business only of course.

i feel for families like mine that are REALLY struggling. fortunately work has been very busy. that and serious budget cuts are keeping us above water. i can't cut anymore w/out sacrificing needs.

it is pathetic that the confused minority are controlling the safe future of stuggling people. LET'S DRILL NOW!
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Old 07-26-2008, 02:59 PM   #59
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There are still MILLIONS of pickups and SUVs on the road today in this country that regularly only carry just one person around most of the time.
so...

punish the responsible for the illadvised purchases of the irresponsible. reminds me of school when one kid talked out of turn, yet the entire class got punished. if only i could go back now...

allow me to digress...

we won't drill to help struggling working families, but we'll bail out those that bought too much house or got an ARM. i say let's raise ALL interest rates, say 20% prime to start. THAT would help my family get back some lost money!!!
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Old 07-26-2008, 06:13 PM   #60
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so...

punish the responsible for the illadvised purchases of the irresponsible. reminds me of school when one kid talked out of turn, yet the entire class got punished. if only i could go back now...

allow me to digress...

we won't drill to help struggling working families, but we'll bail out those that bought too much house or got an ARM. i say let's raise ALL interest rates, say 20% prime to start. THAT would help my family get back some lost money!!!

you got that right. a select few thinks oil is bad so they are forcing the rest of the country to suffer high prices.

those who oppose more domestic drilling still doesn't accept the facts:

1) we are using the oil now, if it can be replaced with domestic oil, prices will drop due to higher supply. it will reduce the deficit, keep the money within the US and stop financing terrorists.

2) we can build all the windmills and solar energy plants but there is still no way to store all the energy that can be generated from these alternative energy source. if the wind blows hard one day and gone the next we will still need to ramp up coal fired and natural gas fired power plants which can't be shutdown right away. since the coal fired and natural gas fired power plants can't be shutdown, we would face an OVERLOAD of power if wind and Solar all of a sudden delivers peak capacity. ALL UTILITY companies agree that that is a major problem and that there is still no solution for it. the best solution for it is for home owners to install solar and/or wind turbines since that will not overload the power grid and cause breakers to trip. the solution for the power grid spike problem is still DECADES away.

3) there is still no alternative for oil for transportation, for manufacturing, for byproducts. NONE! there is good research going on for soy based foam, plastic recycling (less than 1% of plastics can be recycled and that is a fact) but the process is still not economical and is still decades away.

4) those who are for drilling domestic oil ARE IN FACT for alternative energy BUT WE DO ACCEPT AND REALIZE the fact that any alternative is DECADES AWAY. there is no magic solution to the problem. the only solution is to DO EVERYTHING, from conservation, to increase in alternative energy efforts, and to increase domestic oil drilling. one can not stand without the other. we can concentrate on alternative energy alone but we will continue to suffer high energy prices risk overloading the power grid on peak production and endure black outs. we can concentrate on conservation alone but that won't bring down demand fast enough to make a difference and will not increase funding for alternative energy since any profits made from conservation will be minimal everytime there is a disruption on the oil supply and spike oil prices again. we can concentrate on drilling for domestic oil alone but that will not solve the LONG TERM energy problem as production peaks and global demand keep on increasing. THE PROBLEM NEEDS MORE THAN ONE SOLUTION and that is a fact that all industries can explain to everyone if only those who are dead set on the environmentalist agenda will keep an open mind.


5) the only way to lower gas prices right now and for the long term is to increase oil supplies and refining capabilities domestically. the only way to increase funding for alternative energy is to use profits from domestic oil for alternative energy efforts. increasing alternative energy efforts without domestic oil drilling will not lower the deficit, and will force the government to raise taxes in order to supply alternative energy subsidies, and will force utilities to pass on the cost to the consumers.

6) the big oil companies in the US that they hate are actually PUNY compared to oil companies in China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, and other oil producing nations.

the facts are clear and 73% of Americans agree that we need to increase domestic oil production while we increase efforts in alternative energy. NO ONE, from any industry, from the academia, CAN tell you otherwise.

economic factors are at play here, we are not living in a communist country, free enterprise need to do majority of the part in solving the energy crisis and free enterprise is governed by the universal laws of economics which is currently dictating that supply needs to be increased if we are to divert funds into alternative energy.

I'd like to see anyone dispute these facts with practical ideas and evidence, but all that we'll ever see is that if you're pro-domestic drilling you're a "bad person."

I've never bought an SUV or a pick up truck in my entire life. I have two vehicles and I am increasing their efficiency. my house have CFLs and LED lighting, my thermostat is set at 80 deg in the summer and 70 deg in the winter. if I can afford solar panels I would have it on my roof. my 8600 sq ft lot have nine trees (will have more soon) four of which are fruit bearing trees. I've personnaly bought trees from the Arbor day foundation and give them away to friends and family so they can plant them in their yards. we have 4 vegetable beds in the back yard, I do not use pesticides or chemical weed killers. I've planted trees in MANY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES (was in the military and I've traveled a lot and volunteered in many civic activities) compared to many environmentalists out there, I've done more in my lifetime than kids running around claiming to love the planet. I don't want any holier-than thou environmentalist telling me that I'm a "bad person" without knowing anything about me and everything I've done in my lifetime.
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