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Old 08-17-2016, 06:25 AM   #11
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This thread just goes to show how governments and populations can focus so much on one thing (emissions from automobiles) that they don't see the big picture. For example, my understanding is that the 5 biggest ships in the world emit more pollution combined than all the cars in the world, and yet, who is fighting for clean air (or reduced greenhouse gassed) by reducing pollution caused by ships? (Hint: Pert' near nobody).

Then we have the self-congratulatory talking heads in Washington DC gloating about the looting of Volkswagen because they caught a cheater and they are "cleaning up the air"... IN TEST LABS, while real-world car emissions go unregulated, and are shown to be many multiples higher than lab-legal levels, for diesel and gasoline powered vehicles, across virtually all models and brands. Good demo of "penny wise and pound foolish."
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:35 AM   #12
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Agree with you 100% on that, shipping and air travel contribute huge amounts of unrestricted unregulated pollution and pay very little if no carbon based taxes at all. A typical passenger jet burns through 4000 gallons just to take off, and scatters various pollutants, especially N0x all over the city below. Then there's huge scepticism surrounding volcanos, some say these natural beauties pump out more C02 than mankind does every year, who knows?

As for VW, we have a saying here: "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" or in the case of the US, glacial sized boulders. I can't see how it's even slightly acceptable to sue a company for billions of dollars when the US still has nearly 600 coal powered stations churning out the equivalent pollution of 42,000,000,000 diesel cars. But hey, every government is hypocritical in some form or another...
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:37 AM   #13
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Port of Vancouver supplies electrical power to all Cruise ships (that are equipped) while in port. We have multiple ships in Port per day. All electricity is hydro produced. One small step.
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Old 08-23-2016, 06:22 AM   #14
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Agree with you 100% on that, shipping and air travel contribute huge amounts of unrestricted unregulated pollution and pay very little if no carbon based taxes at all. A typical passenger jet burns through 4000 gallons just to take off, and scatters various pollutants, especially N0x all over the city below. Then there's huge scepticism surrounding volcanos, some say these natural beauties pump out more C02 than mankind does every year, who knows?

As for VW, we have a saying here: "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" or in the case of the US, glacial sized boulders. I can't see how it's even slightly acceptable to sue a company for billions of dollars when the US still has nearly 600 coal powered stations churning out the equivalent pollution of 42,000,000,000 diesel cars. But hey, every government is hypocritical in some form or another...
Unfortunately, our old cola plants were grandfathered under older emission regulations. New plants have to meet stricter ones. Which is why, in addition to fuel costs, the power companies choose to build natural gas plants for replacements.

Where government failed in regulating the old coal plants, public groups have successfully sued to have many shut down. Those actions, and the rising costs of maintaining decades out equipment, will end those remaining.

I'd move next to a nuke plant before a coal one, but those old coal plants were still legal. VW blatantly cheated on the emission tests for a decade. This didn't just let them pollute more, but also gave them an unfair advantage over their competitors, and defrauded their customers. The bulk of the damages VW will pay will be going into the buy back program to reimburse those customers.
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Old 08-23-2016, 07:19 AM   #15
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Just because a volcano spews more pollution does NOT give license for people to spew pollution. That's like saying, "Litter on a children's ground makes it okay for me to dump my garbage here, too."
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:44 AM   #16
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Just because a volcano spews more pollution does NOT give license for people to spew pollution. That's like saying, "Litter on a children's ground makes it okay for me to dump my garbage here, too."
No, I'm not saying that Doug. I'm just saying that EVERY DIESEL passanger vehicle in the US combined creates the same pollution as 0.007% of the remaining Coal power stations (and those themselves are only a small part of a big problem) It's not just a drop in the ocean, but an atom of a drop, but I'm not saying it's ok to pollute, I hate pollution as much as anyone, I'm just saying people need to look at the bigger picture.
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Old 08-23-2016, 11:51 AM   #17
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Oh. I don't score well on reading comprehension tests, Paul.
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Old 08-24-2016, 05:18 AM   #18
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VW's punishment isn't just for the extra pollution their cheater diesels caused.

They defrauded their customers by selling cars they claimed met emission regulations when they purposefully disabled such systems outside of test conditions. Many actually cared about the 'clean diesel' claim.

The cheat gave VW an unfair advantage over their competitors. Many were wondering how the VWs with SCR used so little DEF. Honda and Mazda both tried to bring a non-SCR diesel to the North American market, but gave up when they couldn't meet economy and performance targets under the strict US emission regulations. VW was only able to do so by breaking the law.

Then the length of time VW used their cheat device is a factor in the punishment.

If a coal or any other plant was caught blatantly breaking pollution regulations like VW did, there would also be a public outcry with the government coming down on them. Unfortunately, if such happened, the company would likely declare bankruptcy, and leave any clean up costs with the taxpayer.

The EPA's plan to reduce carbon emissions will result in the old plants being shut down sooner than the companies would like. They, and some states, are fighting the plan in court.
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Old 08-25-2016, 07:31 AM   #19
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VW's punishment isn't just for the extra pollution their cheater diesels caused... They defrauded their customers by selling cars they claimed met emission regulations when they purposefully disabled such systems outside of test conditions...
Understood and agreed! But I assume that you've been on top of the world press, in which a number reports have come from the UK, in which the UK government did tailpipe tests under real world conditions on a number of non-VW diesels, and they discovered that virtually all tested diesels (including BMW, Mercedes, GM, Mazda and others), regardless of brand or model, emitted many multiples of beyond-lab-legal levels of emissions outside of the lab. They then tested VW's gasoline (petrol) vehicles, and found a similar situation. They then tested a number of non-VW gasoline (petrol) vehicles, and found virtually all produced multiple times beyond-lab-legal levels of emissions outside of the lab, regardless of model or brand.

These reports have shown up in Canada, where I live, but then... nothing. The media does not follow up, or continue to highlight this info. Instead, they focus solely on VW.

In my mind, this does not diminish VW's wrongdoing, but it does highlight a hugely important fact that seems to be missed by the media, politicians (legislators), and most media consumers: What is the issue? The fact that VW cheated during emissions tests? This is what the media, politicians, and virtually all media consumers focus on! Or is the real problem, the "big deal" so to speak, the fact that these vehicles emit many multiples of lab-legal emissions when operating in the real world? The answer I hear most often, by far, is the focus on the cheating method. Ok, then fine: VW, pass the lab-test without cheating, and continue to sell your 40x lab-legal diesels, because they ARE clean (in the lab), and that's all that matters! This is the majority view.

I don't feel that way. I hold the view the real problem is the high, real-world emissions. And because of that view, I see VW as not being the sole culprit. I observe that exceptionally few people hold this view.
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:23 AM   #20
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VW actually had the cleanest engines overall when tested under real world conditions. Vauxhall, who are a brand of GM actually came out worse, wonder if they published those stories and sales of GM vehicles have dropped too? Doubt it. People are too influenced by the media these days, easier to let a third party decide your opinion for you lol
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