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Old 10-14-2017, 11:10 AM   #1
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Tesla S Costs 3 Cents of Electricity to Travel 1 Mile, so I read.

Averaging the MPG of my last 10 tank refills, it costs me 0.0545 cents of petrol to travel 1 mile.

Spending $35k+ on a Tesla 3 to save 2.5 cents per mile isn't a wise investment. And, when you take into consideration the additional new car insurance compared to my 28y/o Civic, it's probably a wash, at best.

But spending $41k+ (Tesla charges $6k to activate the self-driving electronics) is worth considering. My work daily commute is 66 freeway miles roundtrip. I could be playing a computer game during those 76 minutes; not to mention avoiding the hassle and risks of navigating stop 'n go traffic.

What consideration will entice you to buy an EV?
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:51 AM   #2
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$0.12 for petrol here, so that makes a bit more of a difference. Plus it would be a VW e-Golf. Not a Tesla Model S.
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:55 AM   #3
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Chewy, most consumers don’t think of TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) when considering a new vehicle. They might commit to $40,000 to buy that shiny new hybrid or EV believing they’ll save money on fuel. And they might! But without doing the math that says “How long will it take before I break even?” they’re running a fool’s errand. Saving a few dollars at the pump or the electrical mains weekly will likely never pay off the cost of buying the new car.

“Environmentally Conscious” people them chime in and say it’s not the financial savings; it’s reducing emissions that’s the big deal. Okay. But note that rarely, if ever, do they factor in the emissions and other environmental damage that occurred when:
  • Extracting raw materials for the new car and its parts
  • Refining the raw materials
  • Manufacturing the new parts and vehicle
  • Transporting the raw materials and finished goods
  • Travel emissions for all the workers involved
  • Generating the fuel (liquid or electric) to power all of the above
And that’s just to MAKE the new car! Once your new car is on the road, that apparently “clean” electricity you use for your EV or PHEV might not be as clean as you think. Here in North America, we get approximately 2/3 of our electricity from burning stuff. That includes coal, natural gas, garbage (not a joke), and “biomass,” a euphemism for cutting down trees and burning them to generate electricity (carbon emissions + fewer trees to sequester carbon = double whammy). All in the name of “saving the planet.”

As counter-intuitive as it might be, the wisest thing in many cases is to keep a vehicle as long as possible, and then when you absolutely must buy a new one, apply yourself and do your research. Don’t blindly swallow marketing material, sales BS, or even government propaganda that can be inaccurate, incomplete, or misleading (by omission or intention).


BTW, 8 US cents per mile for my car. Our fuel is more expensive in Canada than the US, as is our dollar's purchasing power, even domestically.
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Old 10-14-2017, 12:02 PM   #4
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I always run a car to the death. Done that for the past 50 years. Newest car I have ever bought was 3 years old. Current one was 10 years old when I bought it. Most have at least 90K on the clock when I get them. FE has never been a big factor, until I reached retiring age. Now running costs are also as important as vehicle price.
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Old 10-14-2017, 12:54 PM   #5
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Steve, off topic, but what's your take on the Canadian real estate bubble? There's some chatter on YouTube about an impending crash. Any truth? If so, are you doing any counter measures?
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Old 10-14-2017, 03:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMak View Post
Chewy, most consumers don’t think of TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) when considering a new vehicle. They might commit to $40,000 to buy that shiny new hybrid or EV believing they’ll save money on fuel. And they might! But without doing the math that says “How long will it take before I break even?” they’re running a fool’s errand. Saving a few dollars at the pump or the electrical mains weekly will likely never pay off the cost of buying the new car.
And some do, and others believe reducing petroleum use, for the environment or national security, is worth the cost of advancing the technology and having it become available to the less well off through advances and a market of used cars.

Quote:
“Environmentally Conscious” people them chime in and say it’s not the financial savings; it’s reducing emissions that’s the big deal. Okay. But note that rarely, if ever, do they factor in the emissions and other environmental damage that occurred when:
  • Extracting raw materials for the new car and its parts
  • Refining the raw materials
  • Manufacturing the new parts and vehicle
  • Transporting the raw materials and finished goods
  • Travel emissions for all the workers involved
  • Generating the fuel (liquid or electric) to power all of the above
Those costs apply to any new car though, regardless of how it is powered, and used cars exist in a finite supply.
Quote:
And that’s just to MAKE the new car! Once your new car is on the road, that apparently “clean” electricity you use for your EV or PHEV might not be as clean as you think. Here in North America, we get approximately 2/3 of our electricity from burning stuff. That includes coal, natural gas, garbage (not a joke), and “biomass,” a euphemism for cutting down trees and burning them to generate electricity (carbon emissions + fewer trees to sequester carbon = double whammy). All in the name of “saving the planet.”
There is no such thing as a national grid in the US, and different regions have different environmental footprints. In terms of green house gas emissions, driving a BEV is equivalent to getting 40 mpg or better for most of the population.

Life Cycle Electric Vehicle Emissions (2015) | Union of Concerned Scientists

For other emissions, it is far easier to control them at a few stationary power plants than over millions of cars. As a plus, power plant emissions tend to be outside of dense population areas.

As for burning trees for energy, this might sequester more carbon than leaving the trees alone. The trees cut down are replaced by a handful of seedlings. These young trees grow faster and sequester more carbon than mature trees. Mowing grass is known to sequester more carbon than letting it grow for this reason.

Quote:
As counter-intuitive as it might be, the wisest thing in many cases is to keep a vehicle as long as possible, and then when you absolutely must buy a new one, apply yourself and do your research. Don’t blindly swallow marketing material, sales BS, or even government propaganda that can be inaccurate, incomplete, or misleading (by omission or intention).
This is true, and I can say many at Priuschat or aware of this fact. But the time will come when that beater will need to be replaced.

In the case of FSPs, carbon emissions can be reduced by retiring them early. For ICEs, most of their lifetime emissions come from burning fuel.
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Old 10-14-2017, 03:30 PM   #7
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$.035 per mile for the Mirage. The higher taxes and insurance on even a used Leaf cost more than my monthly $45 average fuel bill.
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Old 10-14-2017, 09:12 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by ChewChewTrain View Post
Steve, off topic, but what's your take on the Canadian real estate bubble? There's some chatter on YouTube about an impending crash. Any truth? If so, are you doing any counter measures?
Real estate prices in desirable areas (usual major cities) are insane, and getting worse. My 1,400 sq.ft. townhouse with 19' wide postage-stamp lot can fetch about CAD$700K in today's market. I could not even afford to buy my own house! (I bought it 9 years ago at about 1/2 the current value).

I believe a housing price reset will occur, as will a stock-market reset. It's cyclical. I bought my house at the peak in 2008, just before the latest "crash." Where I live, that meant the prices stayed stable or climbed very slowly for a few years, while is less desirable locations, house values fell.

I'm not doing anything as a counter-measure, as I don't want to move, relocate, etc. I plan to stay here until my finances improve considerably so I can buy a much nicer house, with a multi-car garage, a 911 or two (in addition to keeping my current car), etc.
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Old 10-15-2017, 12:01 AM   #9
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Tesla market thier cars as luxury and performance products, which they are, running costs, even if they were higher would not put off potential customers. I would be interested in buying one for the performance, technology and convenience of being able to charge at my workplace whilst I work 9 hours Monday to Friday. If everyone wanted to save money, why do they upgrade thier smartphone every few years? It's the same thing, paying more and getting a better product is very appealing to most people.

And don't forget, electric cars get greener and greener as the grid becomes cleaner and smarter, and the lifespan of the battery should be about 30 years, 15-20 in the car and at least another 10 in home/commercial storage, or as you will see soon, public charge point storage where power transfers will be able to charge multiple vehicles simultaneously.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:13 AM   #10
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Here's a basic comparison, using next green cars fuel cost calculator. They don't list the model 3 yet, so I chose a basic single motor 75 kWh model s, closest I can get. You can see the fuel cost is almost a third V's my current car. Obviously the purchase price is considerably higher, but the model 3 is a lot cheaper than the S. Running costs will vary depending how/where you charge, what time you charge and depends on who your energy supplier is too.
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