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Old 09-06-2007, 08:40 PM   #41
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France has no "equal right amendment" analog and the French can legally not hire people or rent/sell real estate to someone because of their ethnicity.
With the exception of La Déclaration des droits de l'Homme et du citoyen (The Declaration of Human Rights and of the Citizen).

Some translated excerpts... "All the citizens, being equal, are equally admissible to all dignities, places, and employments, according to their capacity and without distinction other than that of their virtues and of their talents." - Article VI

As it has constitutional value and very stringent under the fifth republic (and of earlier iterations) - even positive discrimination is not allowed.

Just FYI, currently, half of my family is in Nice, France.... I'll remember to ask my father why he doesn't have the job he has...

mah, it saddens me that I had to clarify this...
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Old 09-07-2007, 02:10 AM   #42
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trebuchet03 -

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Originally Posted by trebuchet03 View Post
With the exception of La D?claration des droits de l'Homme et du citoyen (The Declaration of Human Rights and of the Citizen).

Some translated excerpts... "All the citizens, being equal, are equally admissible to all dignities, places, and employments, according to their capacity and without distinction other than that of their virtues and of their talents." - Article VI

As it has constitutional value and very stringent under the fifth republic (and of earlier iterations) - even positive discrimination is not allowed.

Just FYI, currently, half of my family is in Nice, France.... I'll remember to ask my father why he doesn't have the job he has...

mah, it saddens me that I had to clarify this...
In college in the 1980's, my Egyptian friend told me something that I've always remembered. He said that in Europe, racism is assumed and entrenched. The barriers are built-in to the culture. No one questions the inequities. In his opinion, the virtue of the United States is that at least the problem is out in the open. We talk about it and make laws and (hopefully) try to solve it.

But, as Skewbe says, we can always do better.

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Old 09-07-2007, 08:25 AM   #43
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Trebuchet,
If that's true, why is there 30%+ unemployment in the Arabic population in France? Ya can't say "they don't want to work", because Arabic unemployment is but a fraction in almost every other country (the exception being the bombed-out countries and countries in the midst of civil upheaval, where noone will invest in the infrastructure... that's a whole different mess, though).
Anyway, here in the US, you can fry someone in court for using expressions like "a black mark on his record" or be accused of religious intolerance for having a Bible at your desk in your workplace.
People are egocentric- individually, culturally, and nationally. I know this is a generalization, and there are exceptions. With a broad brush, though it is human nature to differentiate oneself from the herd, beginning at the most basic level. Color. Then by subtler differences like culture, nationality, religion, sex, age, income level, education. You get the drift. Some people even feel superior because they feel their opinionsare more valid than other people's. It reveals itself in disdain or condescension.
Racism is more easily dealt with that people who feel they're better because of their thoughts. Get to know someone of another race, and you start the process. A person filled with condescension is a bigger challenge, because they'll discount a differing opinion with a knee-jerk reaction, dismissing without consideration.
I'm open to learning. Anything. France has an equal rights amendment? Who knew? Now I do... how is it applied? And why are the French Arabs so upset?
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Old 09-07-2007, 08:48 AM   #44
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...Anyway, here in the US, you can fry someone in court for using expressions...
In the US you can fry someone in court for anything.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:17 AM   #45
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If that's true, why is there 30%+ unemployment in the Arabic population in France?
Firstly, France has a ban on data collected based on ethnicity or religion...
But since we're using unofficial data sets.... A majority of the Muslim population in France are not citizens (dealing the same same problems the US non citizens have to deal with) - additionally, "second generation immigrants" must apply for citizenship at adulthood (a requirement being competent in speaking French). But ask France how many Arabic people reside in France -- they can't tell you and numbers range from 1.5-4.5+ million.
And finally, the Arabic unemployment that are citizens residing in France.... 5.2% -- but really, I hate statistics as they can be tweaked to suite you needs. Especially unofficial.

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results from a Gallup World Poll conducted in February 2007 indicate the French public is quite tolerant of ethnic and religious minorities. Nearly 6 in 10 French (59%) say they would prefer to live in a neighborhood with mixed ethnic and religious backgrounds rather than areas where most people share the same background. This figure is at least as high as comparable results from Germany (54%) and the UK (58%). Further, large majorities of French respondents say they wouldn't mind Muslims (74%), Jews (82%), blacks (81%), and Asians (83%) as neighbors.
Here's the Orwellian dilemma, corollary to Hispanic immigration to the US (causing so much stupid media and political garbage). When a mass of people emigrate from one land to another without assimilation/adoption of local culture, they put themselves in the position to create the same discontent of their home land. As terrible as that may sound, it's a profound example that the literacy rate, in France of Arabic people, is incredibly low. I wouldn't expect to be able to find a job in a Swedish speaking county if I refuse to even attempt to speak the local language. I have no problems with keeping your culture, but that's not to say reject local culture.

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Anyway, here in the US, you can fry someone in court for using expressions like "a black mark on his record" or be accused of religious intolerance for having a Bible at your desk in your workplace.
I think you've hit my point on the head.... If we're so tolerant, this wouldn't be an issue and is EXACTLY my point. Unfortunately, the day that this is not an issue (or even the issue) in the US requires many new generations to pass through.
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Old 09-07-2007, 10:59 AM   #46
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Here's the Orwellian dilemma, corollary to Hispanic immigration to the US (causing so much stupid media and political garbage). When a mass of people emigrate from one land to another without assimilation/adoption of local culture, they put themselves in the position to create the same discontent of their home land.
I disagree w/ you on this regarding any Hispanic immigrants I've met. I have seen no indication whatsoever that immigrants in the socal region haven't tried to assimilate, or carry any of their baggage from their home country with them. In fact, I would say there are a sizable chuck who try to white wash themselves... Kids with heavy Spanish accents but don't speak a lick of their native language don't come from nowhere. Iono, maybe I'm just lucky to have grown up in the most racial integrated county in states.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:21 AM   #47
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Yes, but it's almost never the "majority" who make the most noise. Remember the agnostic father who wanted the word "God" taken out of the pledge of allegiance on behalf of his daughter... even though the daughter declared she was a born-again Christian AANNDD the mom had sole custody? And Al Sharpton calling for the heads of the rednecks who raped and defacated on Tawana Brawley. Then it turned out she made it up. He defended his intolerant, hateful remarks by saying something like it may not have happened to Tawana, but that doesn't mean it HASN'T happened. Damien "Football" Williams crushing that white trucker Reginald Denny's head with a fire extinguisher and skating on the charges. OJ Simpson cutting his ex-wife's throat and killing Ron Goldman- YOU would have been convicted.
When using the word "black" to describe a crayon color or a negative mark on someone's record means you're a racist, we've gotten a bit carried away.
Seriously, does describing a company's solvency by saying they're "in the black" or "in the red" really have an impact on anyone's self-esteem? When will it be OK to use the color black again? Unless you're black; "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand". Now that's racist AND condescending.
How quickly would you get an a$$ chewing- or kicking- if you wore a shirt that said "it's a white thing, you wouldn't understand"? You'd be branded as a bigot and intolerant. Rightfully so. But how long until it's no longer a one-way street?
I am all for setting aside our differences, physical, religious, economic, educational and others, and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. I have strived (striven?) to do just that. But as you know, there's some folks that'll hate you just because of what you are. What do you do? I brush the dust from my shoes and move on.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:43 AM   #48
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I disagree w/ you on this regarding any Hispanic immigrants I've met. I have seen no indication whatsoever that immigrants in the socal region haven't tried to assimilate, or carry any of their baggage from their home country with them. In fact, I would say there are a sizable chuck who try to white wash themselves... Kids with heavy Spanish accents but don't speak a lick of their native language don't come from nowhere. Iono, maybe I'm just lucky to have grown up in the most racial integrated county in states.
Fair enough -- perhaps I should have emphasized any group that refuses to assimilate local culture. An example would be areas in the greater Miami region - where Hispanic/Latino unemployment of 9.1/13.6 (m/f)- but this includes non citizens (I believe).This compared to Ft. Lauderdale (50 or so miles north) - where the same demographic has unemployment rates of 7.5/9.7 (m/f).

Both cities have nearly opposite language statistics. (25% v. 75% English speaking). Miami having a foreign born population of nearly 60% (~42% being naturalized) compared to Lauderdale having 22% (41% naturalized).

Again, I have nothing against pride on one's culture. It's the ego (with any culture) that gets to me. I can only say anecdotally, but the polarization within neighborhoods (ethnically, economically, socially) in Miami seems much greater as compared to Ft. Lauderdale. That's not to say I haven't seen the same in Lauderdale. Again, anecdotally - this past summer I had a flight out of Miami Int.... The safety speech they give on the planes, was never done in English...

I just want to reiterate an idea that I haven't said explicitly... I have nothing against either city. I can point out some great spots in either city -- I'm not trying to make a stereotypical NY v. LA comparison. I'm offering an example (which, in the end could be pure causality - which is why I hate statistics figures).
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:50 AM   #49
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Why is it that I'm correcting every first or second sentence you're writing....

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Remember the agnostic father who wanted the word "God" taken out of the pledge of allegiance
First. Do you even know the definition of agnostic?

Second the guys name is Michael Newdow. He's from a Sacramento. He's an atheist.

Just FYI, I stopped reading after that sentence.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:01 PM   #50
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It's because you're fussy. You evidently knew what I meant. And why would an athiest object to something he doesn't know exists or not?
Yes, I know the dif between agnosticism and atheism. And did it really really matter? I was hoping that you could've at least not automatically dismissed my blah-blah because I used an incorrect word.
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