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Old 10-22-2007, 02:06 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by 2000mc View Post
its just what you know.... i started working as an auto tech in 2000. to me everything older isa pain in the butt. idiot light comes on, plug in a scanner and you about know whats wrong already. online service information, bulletins, etc... there so much faster than using book manuals, service bulletins are searchable and updated daily. for me, working on non OBDII cars is whats hard.

to add usefull info on quality products...

hand tools (and toolboxes)
1. matco - really top notch, downside is dealers are few and far between
2. snap-on - dealers everywhere, good quality, but you pay for the name
3. mac - slightly limited tool selection vs. snap-on, matco. quality that of snap-on usually at a slightly lower price
4. craftsman - start here, when you break em, get free replacement, buy quality replacement, sell craftsman on ebay, limited tool selection, low rank on quality, low cost, sears is everywhere

DMM - fluke
pnumatics - ingersol-rand
electrics - makita

favorite newer tough tiny bright as hell flashlight - fenix cree/rebel led
no joke, its a quality product from china
ahh but see? u have the ability to go plug in a scanner, us "backyard mechanics" cant do crap then theres a problem with one of the sensors...new cars you have to have arms liek gumby and damn $10K lift to get to stuff...and a dang computer program to tlel you were certian parts are even located! im sure youve worked on the windstar vans and having to change those rear 3 sparkplugs are a load of fun arent they? or try an aerostar, my dad couldnt do it, took it to the shop. took the guy 2 hours to change 6 plugs...

on my truck and car, when somehting goes haywire, its super easy to get to and heck my chvette came with a do it yourself repair manual! tells you how to change plugs, oil, brake pads, all the general maintince stuff.(even has some crude diagnosis system too) and it tells you how to decipher the blinky light codes.


lol need i mention a 70-80's silverado or suburban? if youve ever seen one you can litterally sit on the inside fender and work on the truck theres so much room...
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:31 PM   #12
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Great thread! I disagree about there not being a demand for quality and longevity. I think there has been a shift by manufacturers to *build it cheaper* in other parts of the world. You see it in all consumer goods. Car audio, tools, clothing, ..., everything. It bums me out to see a company known for quality (Sony or Craftsman, etc) that begin putting out garbage. You used to be able to buy a product on blind faith. Even Consumers Report has stopped *automatically* giving thumbs up on Toyota vehicles. TOYOTA!! Come on!

I also agree about the newer cars being a PITA (at least for home DIYs). I was thinking of adding foglights to my car since you can get it as a 'kit' from the dealer. No wiring needed - pop off the cover in the dash, plug in the switch and do the same for the lights. EXCEPT... you have to get a software update to the ecu. WTF?! Did Microsoft have a hand in designing the car?? There really needs to be an Anti-Trust lawsuit on car manufacturers that do this sort of thing and get away with it. Bush League!!
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:57 PM   #13
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oh i know! all these totally useless chips to control insanely simple things (all u need are the lights, relay and a switch, and a buncha wire) but no they gotta combine a bunch of things into a board and hide it somewhere and not tell anyone what pins do what UNLESS your a mechanic and have mitchel or some other car program on it... and then ohh yea just plug it in the sockets and instead of doing the "oh so hard task" of runnin wire thru the firewall we will just have a computer whip up a program for us!

things just need to be less complicated car wise and less useless junk on cars...(heard the other day some manufacturer designed a rearview mirror that was POWERED! were so fat and lazy in this country lifting our arm to adjust the mirror(what liek once a year) is gettin to be a hassle now we can just use a little knob!)
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Old 10-22-2007, 09:31 PM   #14
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QA

What grinds my gears is HOOVER! I used to buy nothing but Hoover vacs, made in North Canton, Ohio. They sold out, now I've got a Mexican made POS that burns up belts every month. A Consumer Reports Best Buy for 2004!

Well, I can sympathize with Printers. I've been cursed with bad printers since the Commodore 64's dot-matrix color Epson. The best lately has been an HP Laserjet 1300 or something. Don't get me started on printing at work

Tools, welp, not an expert -- but I have broken tools in half and busted a few knuckles in the process. I don't use enough tools to spend decent money on them. If I can find them in the pile in the garage, then they get used or broken/replaced.

Cars -- welp, the TSX is more complicated than I've imagined. It's off-limits for mods right now. Thank goodness the 'Tegs a '98. Fewer plastic covers and stuff. As far as reliability goes -- who the heck knows anymore. Honda/Acura works for me.

NE-way, if we continue to support cheap-O products from the Big-Box stores, then we get crap. Cheap, short-handled shovels to move crap around. Yeah, bold statement buried in the middle.

Lawnmowers: I inherited one of those Murrays that Vetteowner mentioned -- I can only get it to idle, and start it with an electric drill after 2-minutes of turning. I've taken the carb apart 3-times, no luck -- maybe a good project for the High School students. It's probably worn out. Pretty cool -- self propelled, the handle's in good shape too. But my main one is a 2-year old 6.5-horse Craftsman that's already burning oil . I wanted the Honda, but... hrmf.

Laptops -- rebuilt a few. Older Dells lasted longer, but depended on the model. I'm stuck with HPs these days, which I can get repaired on-site when they eventually break or melt.

Airlines aren't the same, either.

RH77
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Old 10-22-2007, 09:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VetteOwner View Post
ahh but see? u have the ability to go plug in a scanner, us "backyard mechanics" cant do crap then theres a problem with one of the sensors...new cars you have to have arms liek gumby and damn $10K lift to get to stuff...and a dang computer program to tlel you were certian parts are even located! im sure youve worked on the windstar vans and having to change those rear 3 sparkplugs are a load of fun arent they? or try an aerostar, my dad couldnt do it, took it to the shop. took the guy 2 hours to change 6 plugs...
Or have my arms I've yet to have something I couldn't get to from the top or bottom But I have a small and tall frame.

Autozone will scan for free (in my case, SG will scan it for me - but I've yet to need to )

So one you need a computer to get the service manual... the other you need a physical book....

I really don't have any problems working with either older or newer (remember, smaller arms/hands) - but I do like the availability of information on newer cars (from service bulletins to data from the car).

-----
So looking at a reliability table for 2006 (which includes hours in shop for service - presumably including diagnosis, repair and post inspection time)... Average shop service for Honda (#1) was 1.75 hours. Land rover (#26 - last place, not necessarily the longest service time though) is 3.4 hours.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to compare with... Something tells me, however, that these numbers are on par.

But also keep in mind - we can't demand smaller and lighter cars AND keep the engine bay space of a Chevette.

So the extra things a newer car over an older one.... ABS: saved my butt once - worth in in my opinion (anyone want to bid a price on a passenger's life?). Oil/Coolant heat exchanger: why not increase the longevity of oil (recommended change interval is 10,000 miles on my car). FWD: okay, retarded - I won't lie there, to be fair - it does decrease initial vehicle costs. Emissions Equipment: yeah, takes up a good chunk of space - but I don't really like the poo brown clouds. Electric Fans: Space saver in my opinion. Covers: It does reduce noise while reducing weight, not necessary perhaps, but seriously - it's on top and I've never had a problem removing something as accessible as that Plenty of idiot lights: when you can look me in the eye and tell me most other drivers are NOT idiots, I'll agree it's stupid - until then, most other people are idiots in this regard (hence these aptly named lights). Computer control: yes convenience - but I'll never lock my keys in my car, never have a dead battery from leaving anything on, you can break in - but can't start my car, etc. The whole parallel parking thing - if it didn't take so long, it would be pretty useful (again, you might be able to - but that doesn't change the the person that messed with your bumper).

All that said - an older car may have more space to work with - but pretty much every source I've looked at will say that over the past 20 or so years, quality/reliability has increased dramatically (that's overall statistically - which allows for one make/model to decrease, another not to change, and others to increase simultaneously). Most of that increase came from American models where greater quality/reliability improvements were possible.


Sorry to be kinda ranty (don't take anything personal - not the intent of course ). But I'm fairly confident these things are not going to go back to the days of yore. The mfr's will either cash in on the new mass demand, or hold to older convention.
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000mc View Post
its just what you know.... i started working as an auto tech in 2000. to me everything older isa pain in the butt. idiot light comes on, plug in a scanner and you about know whats wrong already. online service information, bulletins, etc... there so much faster than using book manuals, service bulletins are searchable and updated daily. for me, working on non OBDII cars is whats hard.

to add usefull info on quality products...

hand tools (and toolboxes)
1. matco - really top notch, downside is dealers are few and far between
2. snap-on - dealers everywhere, good quality, but you pay for the name
3. mac - slightly limited tool selection vs. snap-on, matco. quality that of snap-on usually at a slightly lower price
4. craftsman - start here, when you break em, get free replacement, buy quality replacement, sell craftsman on ebay, limited tool selection, low rank on quality, low cost, sears is everywhere

DMM - fluke
pnumatics - ingersol-rand
electrics - makita

favorite newer tough tiny bright as hell flashlight - fenix cree/rebel led
no joke, its a quality product from china
wow, a fellow tool nut!

just gonna x2 everything you just said, but the "name brand" isnt always whats important, matco gets their impact guns from ingersol-rand, puts a matco rubber cover on it, and charges 50 bucks more. for the same tool.

makita, those new lithium ion batteries kick ***! i havent had mine long, but a friend uses them at work all the time and recharges his about once a month.

my fluke dmm is super old (i think its a 43 but not sure), but still does everything i want it to.

im still budget limited to craftsman for the most part, but am upgrading to snap-on/matco as i can afford it.
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Old 10-23-2007, 02:42 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by trebuchet03 View Post
Or have my arms I've yet to have something I couldn't get to from the top or bottom But I have a small and tall frame.

Autozone will scan for free (in my case, SG will scan it for me - but I've yet to need to )

So one you need a computer to get the service manual... the other you need a physical book....

I really don't have any problems working with either older or newer (remember, smaller arms/hands) - but I do like the availability of information on newer cars (from service bulletins to data from the car).

-----
So looking at a reliability table for 2006 (which includes hours in shop for service - presumably including diagnosis, repair and post inspection time)... Average shop service for Honda (#1) was 1.75 hours. Land rover (#26 - last place, not necessarily the longest service time though) is 3.4 hours.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to compare with... Something tells me, however, that these numbers are on par.

But also keep in mind - we can't demand smaller and lighter cars AND keep the engine bay space of a Chevette.

So the extra things a newer car over an older one.... ABS: saved my butt once - worth in in my opinion (anyone want to bid a price on a passenger's life?). Oil/Coolant heat exchanger: why not increase the longevity of oil (recommended change interval is 10,000 miles on my car). FWD: okay, retarded - I won't lie there, to be fair - it does decrease initial vehicle costs. Emissions Equipment: yeah, takes up a good chunk of space - but I don't really like the poo brown clouds. Electric Fans: Space saver in my opinion. Covers: It does reduce noise while reducing weight, not necessary perhaps, but seriously - it's on top and I've never had a problem removing something as accessible as that Plenty of idiot lights: when you can look me in the eye and tell me most other drivers are NOT idiots, I'll agree it's stupid - until then, most other people are idiots in this regard (hence these aptly named lights). Computer control: yes convenience - but I'll never lock my keys in my car, never have a dead battery from leaving anything on, you can break in - but can't start my car, etc. The whole parallel parking thing - if it didn't take so long, it would be pretty useful (again, you might be able to - but that doesn't change the the person that messed with your bumper).

All that said - an older car may have more space to work with - but pretty much every source I've looked at will say that over the past 20 or so years, quality/reliability has increased dramatically (that's overall statistically - which allows for one make/model to decrease, another not to change, and others to increase simultaneously). Most of that increase came from American models where greater quality/reliability improvements were possible.


Sorry to be kinda ranty (don't take anything personal - not the intent of course ). But I'm fairly confident these things are not going to go back to the days of yore. The mfr's will either cash in on the new mass demand, or hold to older convention.

lol oh no, i can see from the mechanics point of view(your view) that OBD2 and all the self diagnostics stuf is a dream come true (which i agree, get cars in and out faster, happier customers, more customers, more money etc) some days id love to have a box that plugs into my car and will tell me if anyhting is wrong...but otherdays, i like the ease of old cars and how simple they were. and how easy it is to locate parts (because thier in a somewhat logical location)

yes fwd sucks noddles to work on...i think every car should have an electric fan. since nowadays they have high effecent ones what blow just ammount fo CFM as the stock one. increase mpg and torque.(i wanna put one on my chevette but i dont think my cars alternator could handle the added load)

oh they can still hotwire cars faster than youd think...

hehe i WISH every car has as much engine space as my chevette...
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Old 10-23-2007, 04:35 PM   #18
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I tell you what. The companies that have consistantly provided equipment for professionals are CLEANING UP because of the lack of quality from consumer goods. The examples are listed above. Matco, Snap-On, MAC in tools; Viking, SubZero in kitchen appliances; etc, etc. That should tell you that people demand quality. I'm afraid that its become *trendy* to overdo things (how else can you explain the Hummer's popularity). I understand professionals owning expensive tools and such, because busted tools means lost wages so they cant afford downtime.

For average Joes the word *overkill* comes to mind. Overkill by definition is waste. Why spend $170 on a torque wrench when you can get the same effect with a $15 torque wrench? Sure, the $15 one may not last a lifetime but who cares? Any hear of, "A poor craftman blames his tools"? Means that great tools don't make a great mechanic, and bad tools don't make a bad mechanic.

I am certainly not dissing any company for putting out great stuff. Absolutely not. I'm just saying why overdo it? A friend of mine loves gadgets. He has a ~$3K server that he uses to surf the net. That's like using a nuclear sub to go fishing. All I'm saying is use your head. For the same price you can own a drawer full of nice tools or a garage full of decent tools (both with *lifetime* warranties).

Sorry about the longish post.
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