Need some help with my math, how much HHO needed? - Page 3 - Fuelly Forums

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Old 02-21-2010, 09:41 AM   #21
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okay, lost of posts on this topic, and I'm going to ignore most of them and reply mostly to the start.

dtvg,
First of all I'd like to show you the math, but with a different approach.

from your gas log I think it is fare to say that on a good day on the highway you can get about 57 MPG. so lets round up and make the assumption that your car uses 1 gallon of gas to go 60 miles at 60mph therefor running for 60 min on one gal of gas.
gas had about 125,000 BTU per gal. so 125,000/1= 125,000 BTU per hour

Okay now the HHO side of things.
And the amount of HHO we get is directly related to the electrical energy put in to it, so lets take a look at the necessary electrical system

125,000 btu * .293= 36,635W
Okay lets say you have a really good HHO set up with only about 10% loss. so you would need 1.1 X 36,635 =~40,000W
okay so at 14 V 40,000/14= 2857A
okay so a DF8D car battery (really big one) holds 200 Amp Hours (when drained slowly) and has a weight of 150lbs.
So if drained in an hour lets say it will give 180 Ah (generous)
2857A/180Ah = 204 batteries at 150 lb each
that's 30,600 lbs of batteries in a 1700 lb car, just to go for one hour.

or you could just go with an electric swap...

HHO is a waist of electricity, because ICE's are huge energy holes that give very little back.

That said small amounts of HHO can improve FE by helping gasoline combustion. Small amounts of propane can do the same thing.

If you do what to know how much HHO that is by volume find out what 36,635W is equal to in HHO and dived by 60 go get a min.
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:31 PM   #22
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Re: Need some help with my math, how much HHO needed?

Here's a few things to consider when talking about running an ICE on hydroxy gas (the combined gas output from water electrolysis) vs. gasoline:

Gasoline doesn't burn as a liquid - why use a liquid BTU/volume comparison? If comparing liquid gasoline to hydroxy, you'd have to compare the BTU value of a gallon of gasoline to the BTU value of the water to be electrolyzed.

(By the way, a cubic meter of water contains more hydrogen than a cubic meter of liquid H2: 111kg vs. 71kg. See the pdf link below.)

To make an accurate comparison, you need to compare hydroxy's energy value w a gasoline VAPOR MIX value - the gaseous mix your engine actually burns. According to the link below, the BTU value of a gas vapor mix is approximately 95 BTU/ft3 at 1atm.
ref: http://cta.ornl.gov/bedb/biofuels/et...-No2Diesel.xls

By comparison, pure H2 has a value of 270 BTU/ft3 at 1atm.
ref: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...fs/fcm01r0.pdf

Both of those BTU values will rise when the gasses are compressed in the cylinder - to what extent I don't know.

Nor do I know what the BTU value of hydroxy is, but doesn't adding oxygen to an acetylene torch create a hotter burn? Not my area of expertise. You'd also have to consider the resulting expansion - does compressing hydroxy have the same expansion potential as a compressed gas vapor mix? Maybe you'd want some additional water vapor in the cylinder to expand into steam to help push the piston down. You'd also want to adjust your timing forward, since the hydroxy will burn faster.

Still, it seems like with the above numbers there exists the opportunity of replacing gasoline vapors with a hydroxy mix. The problem is how to create enough of it on demand, and perhaps how to deal with water vapor getting mixed in with your oil.

E=mc2 means that there is a theoretical 85 billion BTUs of 'energy' contained in a cubic centimeter of water. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2...gy_equivalence) Energetic potential surrounds us - the question is not "where does the energy come from?", but rather, "how efficiently can we release it?"
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:52 PM   #23
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Re: Need some help with my math, how much HHO needed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hudsonhornet View Post
Here's a few things to consider when talking about running an ICE on hydroxy gas (the combined gas output from water electrolysis) vs. gasoline:

Gasoline doesn't burn as a liquid - why use a liquid BTU/volume comparison? If comparing liquid gasoline to hydroxy, you'd have to compare the BTU value of a gallon of gasoline to the BTU value of the water to be electrolyzed.
Liquid measures are standard when talking about fuel, and the BTU's convert as gasoline has the same energy to mass ratio in any from.
The BTU rating of water is zero. There is no energy that can be extracted from it at this stage (at least not by any means we are talking about). The energy needs to be put into it with electricity to make a useful fuel.
Comparing liquid to gas is comparable in this situation, comparing gasoline to water is like comparing a bag of tomatoes to a seed with out light, water or soil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hudsonhornet View Post
To make an accurate comparison, you need to compare hydroxy's energy value w a gasoline VAPOR MIX value - the gaseous mix your engine actually burns. According to the link below, the BTU value of a gas vapor mix is approximately 95 BTU/ft3 at 1atm.
By comparison, pure H2 has a value of 270 BTU/ft3 at 1atm.
So one gal. is equal to about 1300 cubic feet of vapor mix. This don't change the amount of energy in it. But with the Figure of 270Btu's per foot of H that would mean, on the previous example, that we would need about 7.7cubic feet per min. of hydrogen per min.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hudsonhornet View Post
Both of those BTU values will rise when the gasses are compressed in the cylinder - to what extent I don't know.
nope, just a decrease in size, same energy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hudsonhornet View Post
Nor do I know what the BTU value of hydroxy is, but doesn't adding oxygen to an acetylene torch create a hotter burn? Not my area of expertise. You'd also have to consider the resulting expansion - does compressing hydroxy have the same expansion potential as a compressed gas vapor mix? Maybe you'd want some additional water vapor in the cylinder to expand into steam to help push the piston down. You'd also want to adjust your timing forward, since the hydroxy will burn faster.
With acetylene the O2 makes it hotter that air mix because there is less room temp air going into it. This makes a more compact flame with the same energy, which is there for much hotter.
Your right on with the timing thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hudsonhornet View Post
Still, it seems like with the above numbers there exists the opportunity of replacing gasoline vapors with a hydroxy mix. The problem is how to create enough of it on demand, and perhaps how to deal with water vapor getting mixed in with your oil.
Never going to beat a electric motor with an ICE powered with electricity...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hudsonhornet View Post
E=mc2 means that there is a theoretical 85 billion BTUs of 'energy' contained in a cubic centimeter of water. Energetic potential surrounds us - the question is not "where does the energy come from?", but rather, "how efficiently can we release it?"
Well that's not really a topic related to HHO. With HHO you are just putting energy in and then getting some of it back. This isn't cold fusion or anything.
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