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Old 05-18-2008, 08:17 AM   #11
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Nice post civic matic.

A lot of know-it-alls on this board who like to say that something is impossible only because that is is "what they heard", or "science says it can't be because you expend more energy then you are making".

Last week I witnessed a new design of an HHO cell, (a simple Mason Jar design from a fellow experimenter) making alot of gas and only pulling 1 Amp. And the jar never gets hot at that amperage. Usually 1 Amp is not enougn to get much gas, and more than 3 Amps, the cell gets too hot, the water gets too Brown, and other problems occur. his design proved he could get a pretty good amount of gas for such a small Amp draw. Not normal. What I've learned is that the key is in the design. I am trying to replicate that design this week.

It's people like yourself who go out and try it and prove it to themselves, whether something works or not, that will benefit. So be it.

The unvarnished truth is some people are getting anywhere from 10% to 40% better fuel ecomomy with HHO being introduced into thier intake manifolds. With other gas saving techniques, like the PVC enhancer, the acetone and xylene mixer, etc, the fuel heater, the and ESPECIALLY the MAP sensor enhancer, savings are being made in the 70% range. Some people have little or no success with HHO only because of their faulty design or wrong hardware they are using, etc.

You are right my friend about one thing. HHO will not work long term without a MAP sensor enhancer or a way to lean out your mixture. You may see better fuel economy for half a tank, but the second half will be significantly less, I am told, unless you can lean the mixture out. My understanding is that the ECU makes an adjustment for the cleaner exhaust it's reading by way of the O2 sensor in/near the catalytic converter. The ECU thinks the mixture is too lean...thus is wrongly then enriches the mixture causing much worse Fuel Economy during the last half tank.

One way to beat this problem, (I learned from my last saturday meeting in LA with my HHO group), is to erase the memory of the ECU by simply disconnecting your battery at the half empty mark. By reconnecting your battery, all previous saved information from your first half tank is erased. It apparrantly needs about a half tank to adjust to what it is reading from the sensors. Try that and see if that works for you. Otherwise you will need a MAP sensor enhancer and/or another way to lean the mixture "on-demand", like the products you mentioned.

Lets the naysayers suck up the gas at $5/gal. HHO experimentors like you and me and real thinkers like Road Warrrior, know that it works.
Thanks Road Warrior for the MIT article. You got to believe that there is something to this when they write quotes like this:

"Fuel efficiency is also gained through the use of higher engine compression ratios made possible by the hydrogen-rich charge characteristics. A hydrogen-boosted fuel system also saves energy because of the remarkably low amount of electrical energy needed to power the reformer. According to the developers, it needs less than 75 watts, which is less than the electric needs of one standard headlight."

"An industry-accepted virtual vehicle analysis based on engine test data indicated the potential for a 20 percent to 30 percent improvement in fuel economy for a turbocharged downsized version of the hydrogen-boosted engine when compared with conventional gasoline engines."

Of course the real geniouses on this site know better than MIT I suppose. LOL

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Old 05-18-2008, 04:12 PM   #12
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a 1 amp HHO generator is awesome! that is super efficient. did he use a voltage modulator to power it up?

I agree that the fuel savings that many HHO generator enthusiast are getting are undeniable. the key is just to lean out the air/fuel mixture. even a simple O2 sensor isolator can do it but a combination of both O2 isolator and a Map sensor enhancer can give the most FE.

both the Map sensor enhancer and O2 isolator can even be used with a water injection system to increase FE.

we just need more people to give it a try and see what works. the more people that try it (and to try it properly by leaning out the air/fuel mixture when the hho generator works) the more success stories can be seen and with that, the more acceptance the idea would get.

I see many people on many forums shoot down an idea before even giving it a try themselves. I like to prove or disprove it myself instead of just jumping to conclusions that something does not work without ever trying it out. that just doesn't make sense to me.

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Old 05-18-2008, 04:34 PM   #13
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Just thought i would add a you tube link from a news cast. Interesting stuff.

Thats a lot of reading above, i think there is a bunch of knowledgeable people on this site and it would be awesome if one of you guys would make something like this work.

Ill get some popcorn and continue reading the above post.
Gas?? Oh you mean the expensive smelly stuff Grandpa used to power his car with? Silly old Man.

Get off my @ss I'm saving gas!!
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Old 05-18-2008, 04:50 PM   #14
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there's already a lot of hydrogen welders in the market today. here's a link that lists companies that have been marketing hydrogen and HHO gas welders, generators, boilers, etc.

Companies Involved with Pure Hydrogen, Brown's Gas, and Oxy-HydrogenAir Products and Chemicals, Inc. USA
As the world's largest supplier of merchant Hydrogen and an industry leader in Hydrogen fuel infrastructure, Air Products is in the forefront of the development of Hydrogen energy technologies.

Alternative Energy Corporation - Canada
An organization dealing with on-demand Hydrogen production technologies designed for the bulk production of pure Hydrogen fuel. Their technology is not electrolysis based and is grounded on fundamental chemical reactions (typically pure aluminum induced).

B.E.S.T. Korea Company, Ltd. - Korea
BEST appears to be the Worlds largest ongoing manufacturer of Brown's Gas Generators. They also have a number of intellectual property rights Patents in Korea. They possess novel designs for systems that use Brown's Gas Generators [up to 500,000lph] as the sole fuel in residential heating and incineration systems.

Domnick Hunter Limited UK
Manufactures a Hydrogen Generator that produces a continuous flow of ultra-pure Hydrogen reliably and cost effectively from de-ionized water and electricity.

Eagle Research, Inc. - USA
A Research Organization that has authored substantive information about Brown's Gas i.e. "Brown's Gas Book 1" and "Brown's Gas Book 2" covering some of the most important contributions to the field of Brown's Gas since the invention of Browns Gas in the 1960s.

Eltron Research and Development USA
This project deals with the development of a new compact Hydrogen generation reactor. It will perform the current multi-step generation of Hydrogen Gas from fossil fuels into a single reactor system.

Epoch Energy Enviroment Corporation Taiwan
Epoch manufactures a mid range of Hydrogen Generators [up to 20,000lph] and provides excellent information about Oxy-Hydrogen and Browns Gas technologies.

FuelCellStore' - USA
HG300 laboratory Hydrogen generator [up to 300lph] advertises as the superior choice for GC fuel and carrier gas supply.

General Motors Inc. - USA
General Motors has conducted extensive research and development into Hydrogen Fuel Cell technologies.

General Hydrogen Canada Corporation - Canada
A manufacturer of Hydrogen Fuel Cell solutions and pure Hydrogen Generator technologies.

Green Hydrogen Ltd. - UK
The UK's major supplier of renewable Hydrogen and Oxygen for industry and transportation.

H2 Innovations, Inc. - USA
Designs, manufactures and markets low-cost on-site Hydrogen generators and gas purification plants.

Heliocentris Energiesysteme GmbH - Germany
Fuel Cell and Hydrogen education.

Hgenerators - USA
Manufactures a Liquid Hydrogen and Gas Hydrogen [300lph] Generators.

Hydrogen LLC. - USA
Hydrogen LLC. is a research and development initiative formerly controlled by Westinghouse. The company is pursuing Hydrogen Fuel Cell technologies incorporating solid oxide design and air-cooled Fuel Cell technologies.

Hydrogenics Corporation - Canada
A manufacturer of pure Hydrogen high-pressure generators and Fuel Cell solutions

HyRadix Inc. - USA
HyRadix's flagship hydrogen generation systems the Aptus and Adio produce hydrogen tailored to customers' specific purity, flow, pressure and volume requirements.

Mahler AGS GmbH - Germany
Manufacturer of on-site gas plants for Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen generation, as well as plants for the purification and recovery of technical gases and process waste gases.

Matheson Tri-Gas, Inc. - USA
The Chrysalis. II "SEPG" Hydrogen Generator produces a reliable continuous output of >99.999% pure Hydrogen using only deionized water.

NanoLogix, Inc. - USA
A Nano-biotechnology company, with a portfolio of patents, has applications and marketability in the following areas: production of high value Hydrogen from industrial wastewater, municipal waste streams and agricultural feedstock. Has announced the initial sale of Hydrogen powered generator engines, which had been converted from gas engines.
Parker Hannifin Corporation - USA
Parker Balston. Hydrogen Generators produce flows of 90 cc/min, 150 cc/min, 300 cc/min, 500 cc/min, 800 cc/min, and 1200 cc/min of ultra-pure Hydrogen (99.99999%) gas safely and conveniently at regulated pressures from 0 to 100 psig.

Peak Scientific - Scotland
Manufactures a scientific Hydrogen Generator delivers high purity Hydrogen gas.

Proton Energy Systems - USA
A manufacturer of Proton Exchange Membrane on-site Hydrogen Generation technology.

REB Research and Consulting - USA
A Methanol-Water Reformer/Hydrogen generation solution producing a pure Hydrogen Gas to supply fuel cells, for brazing and other applications. Also researches and manufactures membranes, catalysts and Hydrogen purifiers.

RTI International USA
RTI engineers are developing membrane technologies for separating Hydrogen from the high-temperature synthesis gas produced by fossil fuel gasification.

Silverwood Energy Inc. USA
Designs and installs Solar electric and Hydrogen Fuel Cell systems to power residential and commercial energy applications.

Teledyne Energy Systems, INC - USA
This manufacturer produces a variety of Hydrogen Fuel Cell and Electrical Power generation technologies.

TsvetChrom Ltd. Russia
The TsvetChrom Hydrogen generators give you the ability to produce Hydrogen gas economically and consistently, right in the laboratory.

USMagneFuels, Inc. USA
Utilizes Prof. Santillis research to recycle to develop a Generator that can convert water-base, oil-base or liquid wastes into usable byproducts, including a clean burning Hydrogen Fuel Biogas, known as Magnegas.

Virent Energy Systems, Inc. USA
The potential of Virents patented BioForming TM process, an unrivaled method for converting the carbohydrates in plant matter into Hydrogen Gas, carbon neutral - renewable fuels and chemicals. Hydrogen Fuel Torch CompaniesArizona Hydrogen Manufacturing, Inc. - USA
Manufactures small Browns Gas Generators [up to 300lph] driving Hydrogen Gas welding and cutting torches born from the work of William Rhodes.

Equipnet UK
Complete line of Oxy-Hydrogen Generators [from 200 to 2,000lph] primarily utilized for Welding, Jewelry and Dental Applications.

Greengas Singapore
Manufactures Browns Gas Hydrogen Generators up to 2,000lph to be utilized for all welding/cutting applications.

Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc. - USA
The originator of the Hydrogen Fuel terminology "HHO" and also the trademark holder of "AquygenTM". Their Hydrogen Generator [1,500lph] is a Patent Pending Technology, however, it appears that it is utilizing older technology utilizing substantially higher electrical input to separate the HHO [Browns Gas] output.

Oxyweld SNC. Italy
Manufactures Oxy-Hydrogen Generators for welding/cutting applications with output up to 2,400lph.

Peak - USA
Manufactures Hydrogen Gas Generators producing R-Gas [Browns Gas] for use in the welding and cutting industry.

Rokura Aplicatii Industriale RAI Romania
Distributor in Europe for HHO Hydrogen Gas Generators [output up to 1,500lph].

Siam Waterflame Company Limited Thailand
Manufactures Hydrogen generators [up to 300lph] to be utilized for both Industrial and Jewelry applications.

Stan Rubinstein Associates SRA Solder - USA
Manufactures Jewelry solder, welders and cutters utilizing Hydrogen Browns Gas.

Water Torch Collective, LTD - Canada
This company distributes the premier common ducted Browns Gas electrolyzer in the world. The design of the 1200/1600 Series [1,200 to 1,600lph] is of such a high caliber that competing technology [utilizing 40+% more electricity] appears antiquated. Provides substantial information concerning Brown's Gas. Companies Involved with Automotive Hydrogen Fuel TechnologyBallard Power Systems Inc. - Canada
This Company is recognized as the World leader in the design, development and manufacture of zero-emission proton exchange membrane [PEM] Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company, Ltd. Canada
The company is focused on Commercial Truckers using a Browns Gas on-demand electrolysis system in automotive Hydrogen Fuel enhancement applications. USA
Hydrogen mileage booster, utilizing Browns Gas, to improve engine efficiency.

Go Green Fuel - USA
A manufacturer of Commercial Hydrogen Fuel Enhancement Systems.

Gorilla Development LLC. - USA
The manufacturer of Hydrogen Generators that utilize the Gorilla Cell electrolyzers producing Brown's Gas. The company conducts exhaust emission research that is pushing the threshold of scientific data available about automotive fuel enhancement technology.

Hy-Drive Technologies Ltd. - Canada
The industry leader in Commercial Trucking Hydrogen Fuel [Brown's Gas] applications, utilizing on-demand electrolysis systems, that enhances Diesel fuel mileage.

Hydrogen-Boost - USA
The Hydrogen-Boost Brown's Gas system out performs the Automotive competition on two fronts i.e. the design of the common ducted electrolyzer and the system comes with extra components, including an electronic control circuit to vary the air/fuel mixture, putting it in another league from competitors.

Hydrogen Fleet Conversion USA
Will produce and market a Brown's Gas Hydrogen Fuel enhancer for all engines.

Hypower Fuel, INC. - USA
The company is focused on Commercial Truckers using an on-demand electrolysis system in automotive Hydrogen Fuel enhancement applications.

Hydrogen H2 - USA
Currently marketing an existing product, but will soon release a much more concise, and streamlined version to update their current line.

Innovative Hydrogen Solutions Inc. Canada
Manufactures H2 N-Gen a Hydrogen based alternative that meets today's pollution problems and improves mileage.

National Vapor Industries, Inc. USA
Produces and markets a Browns Gas Hydrogen Generator. add-on for combustion engines. - Canada
A manufacturer of Oxy-Hydrogen automotive fuel enhancement technologies. They will be adding air/fuel optimization technology to their product line during 2007. Agencies/Universities with Pertinent Hydrogen Fuel InformationBerkeley National Laboratory - USA
Researchers with the U.S. Department of Energys Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) and Argonne National Laboratory (ANL) have identified a new variation of a familiar platinum-nickel alloy that is far and away the most active oxygen-reducing catalyst ever reported.

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation Australia
CSIRO offers internationally recognized expertise in developing new technologies to advance the hydrogen economy.

Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Agency USA
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Agency - USA The EERIE of the US Government provides information about Hydrogen, Fuel Cells and infrastructure requirements. From here you can visit Web sites of research centers and institutes involved in hydrogen and fuel cell technologies.

European Union Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Program Europe
The European Commission believes that sustainable energy systems are fundamental to our objective for sustainable development. Sustainable energy systems require the right balance of appropriate policies with appropriate, well-targeted research and technology development. This research must cover conventional and innovative energy production and conversion technologies, including Hydrogen and Fuel Cells.

Hydrogen Engineering Research Consortium - USA
UCLA's Hydrogen Engineering Research Consortium (HERC) aims at research/development, and education/public outreach efforts, that will help accelerate the realization of the Hydrogen Economy.

National Renewable Energy Institute USA
NREL's Hydrogen & Fuel Cells research supports the U.S. Department of Energy's Hydrogen Program.

National Research Council Canada
A new NRC technology in commercialization could be the key to getting the hydrogen powered fuel cell market charged up.

Sandia National Laboratories - USA
Experiments examine hydrogen-production benefits of clean coal burning.

Stanford University USA
Hydrogen is often advocated as an energy medium. Here are some relevant facts.

White House USA
Fact Sheet: Hydrogen Fuel: a Clean and Secure Energy Future
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Old 05-18-2008, 04:59 PM   #15
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I read the thread by a fellow board member who spent some time trying to get a system working.

Why can't someone just feed compressed hydrogen and oxygen (cylinders available) into an engine at the same volume as the quantities generated, and record the mileage increase using a scan guage?

From that data it can be calculated if the increased power is suffecient to overcome the power necessary to generate the HHO.

I am neither pro or con on this topic.

I am skeptical that the volume of Hydrogen and Oxygen is really a significant portion of the volume of air-fuel mix the engine consumes over a given period of time.

Consider a two liter engine running at 2000 rpm at WOT and full load would consume 1 liter of air-fuel mix per revolution or 2000 liters of air fuel mix per minute (probably lower but a theoretical max) I find it hard to believe adding a couple of liters of hydrogen and oxygen would have such a dramatic effect.

Simply adding the hydrogen and oxygen without the generator would allow you the opportunity to supply either hydrogen or oxygen separately to see which was the major component of any improvement.

Adding oxygen would make the ECU add more fuel, and the resulting combustion temps would rise dramatically (just my guess).

Adding hydrogen at a rate of a couple of liters per minute represents such a small amount of additional BTU's of energy, but it would cause the ECU to lean out the gas mix to compensate.

Just thinking out loud. Browns gas has been around many years, so I am somewhat skeptical.

I did like Road Warriors explanation, but I don't know if I can believe some of the efficiency improvement claims. Its also necessary to understand most engines overall efficiency is 18% while peak is in the 35% range. Diesels are in the 41% range unless you consider some of the giant ones like those in container ships that are about 51%.

For a 60% improvement in overall mileage you would have to increase overall efficiency by that same amount at both highest and lowest percentages, without any other changes.

That would mean a 60% reduction in idle fuel losses as well as a 60% gain in peak efficiency, from 35% to 56%.

the most efficent engine designed so far is a free piston compression ignition diesel, that converts combustion pressure directly to hydraulic pressure storage, at 58%. basically a tube with combustion chambers at both ends, where the force of combustion at one end creates compression and combustion at the other.

Adding 60% increase in efficiency to a 58% efficient design would get you to 92.8 % efficiency. If the HHO generator was capable of so great a percentage improvement over conventional fuel. That percentage is really pushing credibility to the absolute limit.

A free piston design has no crankshaft, con rods, valve train, as well as other parts.

Google free piston engine to see an illustration.

It seems like the supporting data claims a dramatic improvement in combusting 100% of the gas. HCCI (homogenous charge compression ignition has the potential to increase efficiency by 25% by perfectly mixing and completely burning every trace of gasoline, to the point where no further treatment of exhaust is necessary.

If you have to make the engine run more lean or with higher compression, the HH0 injection has to an integral part of the system requiring no constant monitoring or refilling of additives to keep it functioning, while being legal for emissions.

This may all seem like a negative response, but it really isn't. I would love to think I can add a small generator and get 60% better mileage, it would immediately get me 93 MPG in my VX.

It would be pretty stupid of me to not want that improvement, and it would save the US about 400 billion in balance of trade deficits and make OPEC disintegrate.

Applied world wide the savings could feed everyone on the planet.

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Old 05-18-2008, 05:20 PM   #16
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A thought on "adding Oxygen will make the ECU add more fuel" scenario.

Oxygen is needed in combustion. the Oxygen being added by the HHO generator should aid the combustion of the hydrogen being produced. since it is the same amount of oxygen required to recombine both atoms into the H20 molecule, why is it that the ECU detects extra oxygen in the system.

1) that could be because the combustion within the cylinders are not efficient enough to burn the Oxygen + H2 + fuel. how do you compensate for that - reduce the fuel. how do you do that, map sensor enhancer

2) if the combustion is not complete, maybe the car does not have sufficient compression and/or spark. how do you compensate for that - add better spark plugs (don't know how to increase the compression, but if you lean out the fuel mixture then you will have less fuel to burn which may solve your extra Oxygen problem that the O2 sensors are detecting.) and/or add water vapor (as in a water injection system but at a smaller scale since it's only water vapor, this also can be integrated with the HHO generators system by adding an extra jar with a bubbler system).

I'm not an expert on the subject, I'm just starting out on this journey. but extra oxygen in the system added by the HHO generator should be burned back into H2O by the combustion process because the same ratio of Oxygen and Hydorgen is going into the system. the only remaining factor that may be causing an increase in O2 would be the incomplete combustion of fuel in the engine. I think that that may be solved by leaning out the fuel wouldn't you think?
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Old 05-18-2008, 06:28 PM   #17
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Civic, my suggestion was to use two separate containers of oxygen and hydrogen (from a welding supply company) that you could add in metered amounts to the engine, and immediately record the increase in fuel efficiency using a scan gauge. Add each individually or combined in different amounts as an experiment. Not a great idea to have those two highly explosive gasses in any quantity in your car, but for the purpose of testing it could be done on a chassis dyno.

No generator, just the results of adding specific measured quantities of hydrogen and oxygen together or separately.

The oxygen and hydrogen are not being fed through the injectors with the fuel, so the scan gauge will record the difference as increased fuel mileage immediately, because it will only measure the pulse width of the injectors to determine the amount of fuel delivered for combustion. Since your oxygen and hydrogen are not measured (as a fuel going through the injectors) the smaller pulse width will give you a higher fuel mileage reading that should be exactly the amount of real increase, even though it is actually a false reading becasue it does not measure the amount of oxygen and hydrogen you are adding.

If the mileage difference shows that you have increased it by an amount that is greater than the fuel necessary to generate the HHO you have an improvement.

Game set match, proof positive, it works.

In closed loop the ECU reads the oxygen content in the exhaust and adjusts the injector pulse duration to keep the exhaust oxygen content in the desired range. If you change that system, your modifications may not be emission legal and you could be fined $2500 per offense (applicable to individuals now) for each violation.

Virginia has passed a law that requires these systems to be emission legal, and tested to verify they comply.

Fooling the feedback emissions system to compensate for the introduction of a perfect mix of HHO should not be necessary, unless the dilution of that HHO mix with the Nitrogen in the air (about 80%) creates problems with perfect recombination. The gasoline is also competing for that oxygen in the milliseconds combustion occurs.

I certainly am not qualified to teach the complicated dynamics of this modification, but I believe the recommended test should give real statistics.

It may not be accurate to conclude that the recombination will be perfect considering some of the issues. I don't know for sure but some questions I have would be.

The consequences of introducing only oxygen.
The consequences of introducing only hydrogen.
The consequences of introducing various percentages of HHO while measuring the increased mileages instantly using a scan guage.

Pure oxygen introduced into an engine in any significant quantity without hydrogen will have almost the same effect as supercharging, since it has 5 times the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere.

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Old 05-18-2008, 06:33 PM   #18
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OK, got it.

that is an interesting suggestion. isn't that the same concept as hydrogen powered cars minus the oxygen tank?

I would be leery of carrying hydrogen and oxygen in compressed tanks though...seems like a ticking time bomb. LOL!

it would be interesting to see the results if someone does do it.
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Old 05-19-2008, 09:54 AM   #19
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Releases more energy than it takes in? Really...?
How do you explain the law of conservation of energy?

But as some people already know, sometimes it's not the amount of energy you have, but the conditions in which you have it that changes the appearance of energy output. I am sure there is a lot of battery charging involved, and more technical info than your average person can follow, as you must be upsetting the gas composition for the in and out...

Possible pseudo code for such a device that would give the illusion of free energy:

Charge battery
Fill tank with H2O
Use catalyst in water to make a more efficient electrolysis.
Use as much...(thinks) (H2)2 O2 gas as possible, Send rest, if any, to small engine recharging battery for next cycle.

All of the water4gas.blah statements would be validated using the above method, however ultimately, it would be quite impossible to get "free" energy. Just as it always will be. Your engine is controlling a chemical reaction, and all reactions that are reversible are only reversible to a degree, ultimately leading to at least an immeasurable loss every time. There is no such this as 100% efficiency, ever. If you want to get around in the most efficient mechanism on earth, start walking dammit.
Drive it like you stole it. Then go faster.
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:27 PM   #20
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someone sent the pdf book.

its all very interesting we are starting some experments with it.

guys in the back shop said they have had 5 to7 mpg with a hho booster

its not much but worth a shot. ( water filter design and mason jar)

ive made two and have given them to coworker who know what thier normal mpg's are ..

i just got my hx and have no idea what my base line is. ( working on one mile at a time)

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