To draft or slow down?

[R.I.D.E.]

There are about 13 stripes per 10th mile here. If you pass two stripes a second you are doing right at 60 MPH. Thats about 90 feet. Keep 3 stripes between you and the vehicle ahead is about 125 feet.

The stripe and the gap between them is the measurement.

Drop to two stripes coast

Four stripes you speed up.

About 8 15ft car lengths.


regards
gary

[aych]

so if im correct, the faster im going, the further back i can be to get the "draft advantage"?

[theholycow]

You are correct. If you simply count seconds you will get an accurate distance that is proportional to your speed. Earlier in this thread, it seemed that 2 to 3 seconds is the most effective distance (coincidentally it's also a proper safe distance).

[COMP]

Originally Posted by theholycow

You are correct. If you simply count seconds you will get an accurate distance that is proportional to your speed. Earlier in this thread, it seemed that 2 to 3 seconds is the most effective distance (coincidentally it's also a proper safe distance).

just saw a ALLSTATE comm.. 2 seconds ,,,,

[GasSavers_RoadWarrior]

A couple more observations...

Noticed that I get very smooth and strong draft from two types of truck in particular.

i) Tankers, bulk tankers, liquid tankers, etc.
ii) "Reefer" trailers with the dimpled aluminum sides.

I guess it's because both of those have less tendency to make the Von Karmann vortex street and throw you around all over the place.

[GasSavers_Gollum]

There's been some great stuff in this thread, and lots of other stuff to sift through.

I agree a 55mph mandated speed limit is rediculous. People that can afford the gas and the gas guslers to do 100+ mph should be allowed to do so. The autobahn has a very low accident rate, but they're also EXTREMELY strict about their traffic laws over there. Even being caught in the fast lane NOT passing can result in a $1000+ fine. And if I recall correctly running out of gas can cost you $500. They DO NOT want people on the shoulder at all costs.

What we NEED in order to make out freeways safer is mandatory speed differences in different lanes, and MUCH MUCH MUCH more strict licensing. I'm met some very appauling drivers in short driving history. (i'm 21, been driving since 14). I find it amazing who can get a license no days, especially here in California. Make it cost over $1,000 in 6 months of school to get a license, and watch the accident rate drop.

As noted earlier, speed difference is a huge reason for accidents and mortalities on the freeways, but the main limiting factor is driver skill and awareness. A smart driver won't do 100mph in pouring rain. A smart driver doesn't change lanes to pass when they can't see more than 100 yards behind them to ensure another drive isn't comming up. A smart driver will anticipate other driver's moves.

I've only been driving 6 years and I can usually tell when someone is about to change lanes, or even turn on their blinker. I've just been paying attention my whole life and don't settle for my current understanding, and continue to improve my abilities.


And to come full circle to point, drafting. I think it's better to draft at 90mph than not draft at 55mph. Depending on the car the MPG might be the same, but your MPG in relation to the time taken to get somewhere goes up substantially higher than any other driving habbit.

It's tough for me to reach the optimal distance aruond here in norcal, as everyone tail gates beyond belief. Maintaing a 2-3 second distance behind anyone is difficult. I've even had truckers pass me when keeping a 2 second distance behind another trucker, and then proceed to cut me off.

What I'd really like to see happen, even though it'd kill drafting, would be for large corporations to build giant private highways for their trucks. A trucker only highway could be built to widthstand great load weights, softer grades, higher radius turns, giving trucks a huge increase in FE. This would also free up a HUGE amount of traffic on regular highways, and bring maintainence costs way down. There's a huge difference between the quality of the slow lane and fast lane in most of the country, mostly due to the weight of the trucks.

Main issue though is space. And if a company is going to be sending something that far, they're more likely to just use a train. For small distance truckers it doesn't make as much sense.

[Jim T.]

A great book to read about the Germany/Europe versus the American attitude on driving is American Autobahn by Mark Rask.
You quickly realize what total dumbasses most US drivers are. I see it every week here in Florida as I log quite a few miles (15k on my 01/08 Mazda) and have seen some unbelieavable acts of stupidity lately. And LLB (left lane bandits) are some of the worst ones, making the highway a mess of #3 wannabee's all trying to jockey for lane position.

Jim T.

[itjstagame]

A couple points I wanted to comment on.

First, I'm not sure you can say that the difference in traveling speed of vehicles is the largest cause of accidents when in the same sentence we're mentioning how the Autobahn has the least amount of accidents. The differentials in speeds on the Autobahn is nothing compared to here, even LA. Most areas the truckers in Germany are limited to 80kmh or sometimes 100kmh, but typically 80. So they're constantly going a super slow 80 in the right lane and most everyone else is averaging 120kmh. Now I say average, but lots of people go 140kmh or 160kmh or higher and some prefer 100kmh. There are so many different speeds on the road and it's only 2 lanes in each direction usually (that's 4 lanes total, so I don't confuse anyone). I've definately pissed off some people by going my 150-160kmh in the left lane and they come up on me doing 180-200, but they can usually see I'm busy passing a line of 80kmh trucks or that one is coming up soon enough I don't have time to move over. Only if it's clear there is definately space for me to move over and I'm still going to slow, then do they signal me.

As for the signal, I really really like the method they use, I saw one person mentioning flashing headlights and honking the horn. That's quite obnoxious. In Germany you just put your left blinker on. It's the clear sign that means you're in the wrong lane and I have no left lane to pass you in so move over. Everyone seems to know this and do this.

Another point, about giving way to trucks and not pulling in front of people. In Germany trucks and people don't care. If you're in front then you have the right of way and while they might put their left blinker on they don't overly tailgate or get too angry. I get angry though, you don't know how many times the road will be almost empty, I'm clearly coming up quickly (at 160kph or so) and 2 trucks are in the right lane. Suddenly the truck that was going 85kph decides to pass the one going 80kph. The don't care that I'm there and that I have to brake. I really really hate them.

I think the biggest issue is the aggressive driving here, mostly the excessive tailgating and switching lanes back and forth constantly. I was never nervous in Germany and while I paid attention to who was behind me and if I had space, I was never nervous even if someone was going much much faster. Well ok, I was a little nervous anytime I saw two trucks near each other. They really like to pull in front of you. But at the same time it was a bit more exhausting, requires much more concentration to drive on the road. You're watching every vehicle around you and mentally keeping track of their speeds. I'm not sure I want no speed limit on our roads with our US drivers, but I have to admit that 3 hours on the autobahn was much nicer than 1 hour on the thruway. Our interstate system is boring! We have to add rumble strips because everyone is falling asleep. You set the cruise and ignore everything else. In fact our turns are so lazily radiused that you can't tell if you're turning sometimes. You require very little steering input and no gas input and you want to kill yourself to slam into someone for fun after about 1/2 hour of this mind numbingness.

Last point, about Germans obeying the laws. This is true for the most part and in most areas of the society, but feels much less so on the road. I'd say almost 1/3 of motorists completely ignore the speed limits in Germany with the rest going 10-20kmh above them. At least on the Autobahn, in city limits noone would speed ever. I only saw 1 cop in my many hours logged on the Autobahn over my 3 months in Germany. I really don't think it's enforced as strict as everyone says. Plus I know for a fact that they only have to worry about points (accumulating to lose their liscense) for over 20kmh. Below that is just a fine, I think 20kph is 500 euro and less for lower speeds. For most the expensive BMWs and Mercedes I'm sure they don't care about their potential fine.

The driver's liscense is certainly another issue. I'd say almost 80% of the two wheeled vehicles in Germany were <=250cc scooters. They have a graduated motorcycle liscensing system (as most every other country but the US has) and they start out small and you seldom on occasion saw a 600cc or 1000cc sport bike and sometimes a Harley (very few). EVERYONE on a bike bigger than a scooter has FULL gear, I mean like a full racing suit and gloves and boots. When I told our land lady that in California a 14 year old could go out and buy a 1000cc as their first bike and typically crash instantly wearing only shorts and sandals she was amazed and appalled. Now I could have been wrong, I don't really know when you get full liscense in Cali, but it sounded much more shocking than the 16-18 year olds in NY here that do the same thing. Actually I think every 1000cc I've ever seen here has been ridden by an 18 year old. I just don't understand the lack of respect of the power of the vehicle and blatant stupidity.

In conclusion and back on topic, 2-3 seconds you say, I'll have to give it a try. The couple times I've tried I was much closer than that and the vortexes just bumped me around and I actually lost FE (quite a bit too). And lastly, I miss Germany, I wish people would wake up and get a clue here. I'm seeing many more people biking and trying to plan alternates, but still this is easily less than 5% of the people I know and see everyday. The majority are still driving their SUVs at WOT until 100ft before the red light and slamming on their brakes inches from the bumper in front of them. I really hate the drivers here.

[diver1972]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Even being caught in the fast lane NOT passing can result in a $1000+ fine.

Originally Posted by Gollum

And if I recall correctly running out of gas can cost you $500.

Originally Posted by Gollum

What we NEED in order to make out freeways safer is mandatory speed differences in different lanes, and MUCH MUCH MUCH more strict licensing.

Originally Posted by Gollum

It's tough for me to reach the optimal distance aruond here in norcal, as everyone tail gates beyond belief. Maintaing a 2-3 second distance behind anyone is difficult.

Just do what I do: lay on the horn when they begin to move over and stay on the horn as long as they stay in front of you. Of course, gradually drop back to increase safe following distance at the same time, but make it very clear to them that what they did is not an acceptable manuever.

While this doesn't do much for immediate prevention; perhaps it'll help with long-term prevention, provided enough people do it with enough frequency.

[diver1972]

Originally Posted by itjstagame

As for the signal, I really really like the method they use, I saw one person mentioning flashing headlights and honking the horn. That's quite obnoxious.

Yeah, that was me who mentioned that. But, in case it wasn't clear in my prior post, I first follow at a safe distance while flashing my headlights (i.e. a long-standing and almost universally accepted method of indicating your desire to pass on their left and to request them to please move over to their right, not to mention that it's one reason why most vehicles have the headlight stalk feature that allows one to pull and release in order to flash the high beams). I only do this when it is safe for them to move right (i.e. I do not do it when they cannot move right due to other vehicles).

If they either ignore my visual signal (i.e. flashing high-beam headlights) or simply do not notice it (e.g. due to inattention and not checking their rear-view periodically as licensed drivers are taught to do in the U.S. driver's education courses), then they get the audio signal (i.e. horn-honking). Polite beep at first. If they continue to ignore or not notice it (i.e. they are oblivious to the traffic conditions around them), then they receive the steady-state honk for as long as is necessary for them to get the picture.

While some may cry out "But you're being a rude bastard by doing this!", to them I retort "But it was the other driver who was first rude by being inconsiderate and/or unaware of those drivers around him/her."

And, I would also ask "Well, how do you handle a driver in front of you at a red light that turns green and he/she doesn't begin moving forward within several seconds? Do you just sit there patiently, for 5 seconds, or 10 seconds, or even 30 seconds, or the entire light cycle, and patiently wait until the driver in front of you begins to move on his/her own timetable? Oh, you don't just wait patiently and you honk your horn? Do you consider that rude? No? Well, then, I rest my case."

So, in other words, rudeness begets rudeness. Unfortunately, this is perhaps not the absolute best solution to the problem of drivers who either ignore other drivers and/or are simply unaware of them, it is the best solution of which I am aware.

Also, do you ever notice that if you're the honker, you're somehow always justified in honking, and, if you're the honkee, the honker is a just plain rude bastard? Doesn't make sense, does it? Both cannot be right at the same time.

I strongly believe in the principle of learning that immediate feedback is a very effective way of learning. The immediacy of the feedback is a crucial element in behavior modification...just ask any successful dog trainer or child psychologist (by the way, what works for dogs and children, also works for adults, believe it or not). So, I am providing the other driver immediate feedback that what he/she is currently doing is unacceptable.

Originally Posted by itjstagame

In Germany you just put your left blinker on. It's the clear sign that means you're in the wrong lane and I have no left lane to pass you in so move over. Everyone seems to know this and do this.

Nice idea, but do you think that would work in the U.S.? I know that it could work in the U.S.; however, wouldn't it be a significant learning curve and require a large educational campaign?