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Old 03-08-2006, 09:31 AM   #21
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Quote:Why not a Civic

Quote:
Why not a Civic VX?
This was my only point. I may have sounded a little deranged from the late night flu talking, but the idea at the heart of my complaining was that last year I went into honda looking to buy a new honda and everything was expensive, or got bad fuel economy, or something else. I asked about an Insight and the guy said there hasn't been one on the lot for 3 years because when they stocked them no one would buy them. And that's a car Honda sells for less than it costs them to produce. That's mainly a marketing idea to sell cheap and take market share, but Honda also deserves credit for trying to popularize and economize the technology while production costs are still high. Then I asked about a Civic HX (the last honda around that just uses plain old vtec-e from the Civic VX days). The guy didn't even know what the heck I was talking about, so he went to the back room and called other dealerships for 15 minutes and said no one had had any in stock for a while so there were none he could trade for. The HX wasn't even though good, like 36/44 I think. Then I just went for the base model coupe. Test drove it, the stick was awesome, drove well, everything. They wanted 12k for it which was a good deal (I think this one got 32/38), thought about it for a while and decided I wanted to buy my own car rather than making mom buy it for me.

But anyway, what I learned from all this is that while Honda still does produce things like the Insight and HX they are not available to a lot of people (I went to other dealerships too). Honda has gone from offering 2 door sports cars that get awesome mileage and have good performance (crx hf and crx si, then civic vx and del sol with the b16) to 2 door sports cars being the s2000 and the insight.

I just want honda to get back to its roots and offer a car that has no power, lots of gas mileage, small size, not a lot of features, not a huge price tag.

It seems like in this day and age Honda just sticks the same big engine in all of their civics and calls it a day, whereas they used to have 4-5 different engines for their civics that allowed everyone to get what they wanted.

Quote:
It is VERY sad that the cheapest "economy" car Honda makes today is over $20k.
Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I might as well say if I ever felt the need to buy a new car right now it'd still be a honda, and I in fact convinced a dear friend of mine who was buying a new car to buy a honda over a toyota.
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Old 03-08-2006, 10:02 AM   #22
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This last post here was very

This last post here was very nice SVOBoy. I know we're not rating each other's posting or writing abilities, but you summed up the problem with Honda and it's presented in a way that I can agree with you.

these cars are not available. Often times people will go into a dealership wanting a certain car but will leave with another one. Once you've decided to "bite the bullet" and spend that much money, it becomes easier to spend less on a different, less efficient, car.

And why wouldn't an average person spend $12k on a new car compared to $20k? The price difference is ridiculous. The return on investment takes longer than most people will own the car. From a purely economic standpoint, i'd just buy the 30mpg coupe and save myself $8k.

And that's no even addressing the availability of cars. Even the Prius has a waiting list of around 3 months, which I think is just as silly.

It does seem that Honda throws in economy as an after-thought on a lot of their engine designs now adays. The CVCC engine was build FOR economy and nothing else. it sparked a new era of internal combustion engines. Now adays Honda is still building awesome engines, but they seem to care more about getting more power out of them than anything else. Economy gains are usually afterthoughts or just icing on the cake.

Did you know that Honda made an EV?



http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/hondaxx.htm

I do wish that someone would simply focus on economy and nothing else. Perhaps that will change with the Fit.
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Old 03-08-2006, 10:10 AM   #23
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Quote:Did you know that

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Did you know that Honda made an EV?
I did not, but I think all my major makes had one at some point. I think it was ford that made one that was very popular in California, then they collected them up (since they were all on lease) without allowing the leasers to buy them and junked them all. Doesn't make any sense.

I also think toyota made a rav4 EV back in the day, zero emissions plus small suv is a great concept for people with families or that haul lots of crap.
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Old 03-08-2006, 11:05 AM   #24
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Re: Quote:Did you know that

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Originally Posted by SVOboy
Quote:
Did you know that Honda made an EV?
I did not, but I think all my major makes had one at some point. I think it was ford that made one that was very popular in California, then they collected them up (since they were all on lease) without allowing the leasers to buy them and junked them all. Doesn't make any sense.

I also think toyota made a rav4 EV back in the day, zero emissions plus small suv is a great concept for people with families or that haul lots of crap.
Ford did this, as did Honda. Honda gathered up the EV+ and junked them all. They used the technology from the EV+ and put it into the Insight. IMO this was rather stupid b/c the EV+ achieved over 100 miles per charge (I think more like 150).

Toyota, however, listened to the protests of the customers and quit scrapping their Rav4 EVs to let the owners buy them. Yay for Toyota.
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Old 03-08-2006, 11:30 AM   #25
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Quote:Ford did this, as did

Quote:
Ford did this, as did Honda. Honda gathered up the EV+ and junked them all. Toyota, however, listened to the protests of the customers and quit scrapping their Rav4 EVs to let the owners buy them.
GM crushed all their EV1 electric cars (not counting some which were donated to institutions, without running gear) despite pleas from existing customers to purchase their vehicles and sign waivers releasing GM from any obligation for support or service.

= corporate insanity and/or sociopathy.

http://www.dontcrush.org (site is stale, but gives an overview).
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Old 03-08-2006, 01:08 PM   #26
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Re: Quote:Why not a Civic

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVOboy
Quote:
Why not a Civic VX?
This was my only point. I may have sounded a little deranged from the late night flu talking, but the idea at the heart of my complaining was that last year I went into honda looking to buy a new honda and everything was expensive, or got bad fuel economy, or something else. I asked about an Insight and the guy said there hasn't been one on the lot for 3 years because when they stocked them no one would buy them. And that's a car Honda sells for less than it costs them to produce. That's mainly a marketing idea to sell cheap and take market share, but Honda also deserves credit for trying to popularize and economize the technology while production costs are still high. Then I asked about a Civic HX (the last honda around that just uses plain old vtec-e from the Civic VX days). The guy didn't even know what the heck I was talking about, so he went to the back room and called other dealerships for 15 minutes and said no one had had any in stock for a while so there were none he could trade for. The HX wasn't even though good, like 36/44 I think. Then I just went for the base model coupe. Test drove it, the stick was awesome, drove well, everything. They wanted 12k for it which was a good deal (I think this one got 32/38), thought about it for a while and decided I wanted to buy my own car rather than making mom buy it for me.

But anyway, what I learned from all this is that while Honda still does produce things like the Insight and HX they are not available to a lot of people (I went to other dealerships too). Honda has gone from offering 2 door sports cars that get awesome mileage and have good performance (crx hf and crx si, then civic vx and del sol with the b16) to 2 door sports cars being the s2000 and the insight.

I just want honda to get back to its roots and offer a car that has no power, lots of gas mileage, small size, not a lot of features, not a huge price tag.

It seems like in this day and age Honda just sticks the same big engine in all of their civics and calls it a day, whereas they used to have 4-5 different engines for their civics that allowed everyone to get what they wanted.

Quote:
It is VERY sad that the cheapest "economy" car Honda makes today is over $20k.
Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I might as well say if I ever felt the need to buy a new car right now it'd still be a honda, and I in fact convinced a dear friend of mine who was buying a new car to buy a honda over a toyota.

You know, I agree with you on the above point, and I am suffering from a nasty sinus infection that is making me irritable too. It seems like the "budget" cars coming from the Koreans (Kia/Hyundai), which is where Honda was back in the day -- a growing force, but not quite fully in the game. Last night I got jumpy and felt I had to defend Honda. I talked my in-laws into trading-in their Grand Marquis to an '05 Civic LX, and they love it. Of course it took a while to get used to the size, but they rave about the economy and drivability. Everyone that seeks car purchasing advice, I point straight to Honda.

I started this thread with the intention of showing that the Fit with it's tidy 1.3L (correct me on this) can be bought for around $12K, but they also have a hybrid in the plans. So they're kinda bringing back the affordable entry level car to compete with Toyota's Scion line.

No hard feelings :-)

RH77


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Old 03-08-2006, 01:32 PM   #27
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Re: Quote:Why not a Civic

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Originally Posted by rh77
I started this thread with the intention of showing that the Fit with it's tidy 1.3L (correct me on this) can be bought for around $12K, but they also have a hybrid in the plans. So they're kinda bringing back the affordable entry level car to compete with Toyota's Scion line.
Yes, they are bringing back the affordable part, but not the high FE. 13 to 14k is what I heard and a 1.5L not a 1.3L

33/38 MPG in the 1.5L 5 Speed. The final drive of 4.29:1 has got to hurt the highway mileage.

For more details:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47&page=2

Only 33/38 MPG? That is sad. :-(
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Old 03-08-2006, 02:12 PM   #28
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Quote:It seems like the

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It seems like the "budget" cars coming from the Koreans (Kia/Hyundai), which is where Honda was back in the day
I have been thinking this lately also.

I dunno, I've heard 12k numbers for the fit and the fit hybrid, but it doesn't make sense, I think the hybrid is gonna be pretty pricey myself, but hopefully under 18k. It could be a gateway hybrid or some such nonsense.
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Old 03-08-2006, 02:17 PM   #29
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WTF!

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Originally Posted by krousdb

33/38 MPG in the 1.5L 5 Speed. The final drive of 4.29:1 has got to hurt the highway mileage.

For more details:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47&page=2

Only 33/38 MPG? That is sad. :-(
WTF! I'm not going to drive an ugly car for that kind of mileage. It looks nice on the inside, but the exterior is, well, not my favorite look. Why such a high final drive? That gets me. I also thought we'd be getting the 1.2L or 1.4L that's available in the UK -- or even the "CVT-7", which is a CVT that you can essentially "shift" on your own with paddles if you want or let it do its thing. http://www.honda.co.uk After you navigate through the marketing crap, click on the Honda Jazz (Fit) and you'll see what I mean (and the mileages they're getting)! Of course that's a higher octane fuel, but still, on US crapoline it has to be better than the 1.5L. Where is this 1.5 coming from? Nothing in the lineup here has that. This means they're importing it from something. If that's the case, why not import the diesel or a smaller displacement. You know what, I see what SVOboy's been getting at.

RH77
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Old 03-08-2006, 02:21 PM   #30
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Quote:You know what, I see

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You know what, I see what SVOboy's been getting at.
And something else: You might think with all the millions of cars honda has put together with the same washers on the fuel rails they could make the washers for less than 3.05 a piece, especially when you need two! What the heck is up with that, it's a damn piece of copper. Yeah, Honda spent all this time and money "reinventing" the diesel and I don't see it hitting the US shores at all. Merf.
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