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Old 07-18-2008, 03:05 PM   #31
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I don't see why an electronic device could not be made that would hold constant throttle position yet kick off on braking. I want one.
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:42 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 96sc1 View Post
I don't see why an electronic device could not be made that would hold constant throttle position yet kick off on braking. I want one.

thats exactly what a cruise control does, it has to monitor the vehicle speed signal and try to maintain that speed within +-2/3 mph, to do this ACCURATELY is not something someone could whip up with $20 parts, on older vehicles there is the need to convert the VSS signal to a mechanical control of the throttle which must be able to respond quickly to changing road conditions but not too quickly or you will get surging which is constant throttle pulsing, which is what happens on a cruise which is not perfectly fitted/installed on a vehicle, its very annoying to have a car do that. on a drive by wire vehicle that uses a throttle that is electrically/electronically controlled by the vehicles computer requires that the external input device ie: cruise control must be able to speak the language of the vehicles computer in order to tell it at what speed it must hold the vehicle at, and the vehicles computer must have the requisite programming in it in order for it to be able to do a cruise control function. ie: if you install rostras cruise control kit part # 250-9004 on a chevy equinox/pontiac torrent the cruise control will NOT function unless you get somone with a General Motors TechII diagnostic machine with a Candi interface module attached to it to go into the Body Control Module programming and turn on the cruise control feature. now you could take part # 250-9004 and put it in a 2008 gmc savanah van and the cruise WILL operate without the need of the diagnostic equipment.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:10 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trollgods View Post
thats exactly what a cruise control does, it has to monitor the vehicle speed signal and try to maintain that speed within +-2/3 mph
96sc1 was asking about constant throttle position, not constant speed.

Speaking of DBW and cruise, it's really annoying having DBW and not being able to feel cruise through the pedal. With cruise control on a good old fashioned cable throttle, the gas pedal moves with the throttle (at least on GMs it does; I can't remember for sure in other vehicles), and you can monitor it with your foot. With DBW (as in my VW) I can't feel it. It doesn't make much (or any) functional difference but I still like to know.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:37 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by theholycow View Post
96sc1 was asking about constant throttle position, not constant speed.

Speaking of DBW and cruise, it's really annoying having DBW and not being able to feel cruise through the pedal. With cruise control on a good old fashioned cable throttle, the gas pedal moves with the throttle (at least on GMs it does; I can't remember for sure in other vehicles), and you can monitor it with your foot. With DBW (as in my VW) I can't feel it. It doesn't make much (or any) functional difference but I still like to know.
I know exactly what you mean. I like to know what the cruise is doing as well. I usually flip the pedal up, and rest my toe underneath it so I can feel how much throttle the cruise is delivering. As the cruise increases the throttle, the pedal is dragged across my toe. One of the ambulances I had when I was at the rescue squad was 100% DBW, and I didn't realize this until I was at the side of the road with it one day. It was either a 99 or 00, not quite sure what year it was now. It was on an International DT4700 Low Profile chassis though. I spent a lot of time idling at the scene of an auto accident where a car ran into a utility pole in the rain. When it was finally safe to remove her from the car we left for the hospital. About 2 blocks from the hospital I stopped at a traffic light because the oncoming traffic did not stop yet. When I went to go I pushed the pedal and nothing happened. I had to idle out of the intersection. I called another unit that was leaving the hospital to take my patient the last 2 blocks there, and after that was done I tried to figure out what was wrong. I was sure the throttle cable got disconnected, but I could not find it. That was when I decided I would follow it from the pedal. That's when I looked under the dash and realized there was no cable there. I took it to the dealer later that week and they had determined that the wiring harness got wet, and that's what caused it. I had them take all the electrical connectors apart that might possibly get wet and seal them with lithium grease so that would not happen again.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:15 AM   #35
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Regular lithium grease can be used on electrical connectors? I did not know that. If true, it would be very useful for me.
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Old 07-23-2008, 12:30 PM   #36
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Regular lithium grease can be used on electrical connectors? I did not know that. If true, it would be very useful for me.
Yeah, it doesn't deteriorate in the heat under the hood, and seals out air and water so no corrosion forms on the contacts. I love lithium grease. I use it to lube up the adjusters on my brakes, electrical, you name it. The only exception is where I don't use lithium I use high temp wheel bearing grease. When I took Rusty out of retirement his tailgate was very stubborn. I took the tailgate off and lubed all the contact points with wheel bearing grease. Now it works like new.
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:40 PM   #37
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Cool. I thought you had to buy special-purpose grease to use in electrical connections. I have a decent supply of white lithium grease as well as axle grease and some high-tech synthetic grease that I bought for my power window tracks (I would have used axle grease but I couldn't find it).
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:31 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by trollgods View Post
IMHO anyone attempting to do a THROTTLE LOCK is a DANGEROUS person an should not be allowed to touch things in their car.
You are entitled to your opinion. I tend to disagree (for reasons mentioned below).

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Originally Posted by trollgods View Post
A cruise control although more expensive is SAFER than a manual or electric/electronic throttle lock.
Because a "throttle lock" (on in my case a locking "hand throttle") is (by its vary nature) a more "manual controlled" device (than a full "cruise control"), how "safe" it is clearly is more dependent on how the driver uses it! So in the hands of a driver that doesn't realize the limits of their "throttle lock", a full "cruise control" (with all its automation) is clearly safer.

But IMHO the exact same argument could be made with anything that has a "manual" and "automatic" version in cars. For example, I'm sure some would think my stick-shift is much more "dangerous" than an automatic transmission, and it probably is in the wrong hands (simply because an automatic transmission requires less thought and skill out of a driver than a manual transmission does). But in the hands of someone skilled with a stick shift, they can be very safe indeed.

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Originally Posted by trollgods View Post
A throttle lock is going to be worse than a bad cruise unless you drive on ANYTHING but the MOST LEVEL roads, your car will lose speed up the slightest hills and could accellerate madly down hills ,
Only if you use it like an idiot!

Remember, a "throttle lock" being a MANUAL device, requires a little more thinking by the user than a cruise control (which is an automatic device, with more safety features built in). But this is no different than the kind of thinking that you need to do in a stick shift car, vs the kind of thinking you need for an automatic. Nor is it any different than the kind of thinking you need to do to manually turn on/off your car lights, vs some of the newer cars that automatically sense the light level outside the car and turn them on/off for you. In fact, in my experience (having driven both automatic cars and stick shifts, and also having driven with full cruise controls and used a locking "hand throttle") the additional skill/thinking needed for my "hand throttle" (over the cruise control) is considerably less (additional mental effort) than the additional thinking/attention a stick shift needs vs an automatic transmission. Consider:

1) You do NOT need to be on "level ground" for a hand throttle (or throttle lock) to work very well. In fact, such throttle locks work well on any road where the angle (and therefore the required amount of throttle to have an even speed) is fairly constant (be that a level road, a road gaining altitude, or one going down hill). Yes, the throttle position you lock at will vary depending upon the angle of the road (as well as such factors as head/tail winds), but as long as the road stays fairly even in angle (and many highway roads do for long periods of time), the throttle lock will maintain a fairly constant speed.

2) Even if the road conditions change from time to time, there is nothing preventing you from reaching over and changing the lock position slightly. For example, if I am using my hand throttle and I notice I'm starting to slow down (remember a driver should be keeping an eye on their speed, or they aren't doing their job), I will simply click the position (of my hand throttle) up a notch (to start giving me slightly more throttle). Conversely, I'll click my throttle down a notch if I start going too fast (or if I really start going too fast down a hill, I'll just turn off the hand throttle entirely, and run with my traditional foot throttle). Again, this is a TRIVIAL adjustment for the driver to make. Yes, some cruise control computer doesn't do this for me, but neither does it make adjustments to my foot when I'm driving manually with the foot throttle! The point is, the driver is still in control in this case, so as long as the driver has a clue such a device can be used safely.

3) If I see heavy traffic up ahead, I'll just reach over and turn off my hand throttle (and drive by my foot, which is "safer" than both a hand throttle and a traditional cruise control). And FWIW if I'm in a car with a traditional cruise control, I'll also turn that off as I approach heavy traffic (where I might have to make speed/direction shifts on short notice). IMHO neither throttle locks nor cruise controls are appropriate for "heavy traffic"!

4) And if I somehow needing to make a "panic stop" (and also didn't think about my hand throttle being engaged), I would naturally step on both my brake and my clutch (the natural reaction for a stick shift driver making a "panic stop"). This would naturally disengage my hand throttle (at the cost of making my engine race a little bit) every bit as quickly as stepping on the brake/clutch would with a traditional cruise control.

So again, how is a "throttle lock"/"hand throttle" more dangerous?

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Originally Posted by trollgods View Post
it is potentially suicidal if it gets stuck unless you are a VERY quick thinker and know to shut your car OFF and coast to the side of the road to a stop.
True, up to a point.

BUT the exact same thing could be said about the existing foot throttle (which IMHO is even more likely to get stuck)! And in fact I've been in a full sized van (which FWIW had a traditional OEM cruise control installed) where the normal (foot) throttle cable actually stuck in the on position while I was driving down the highway (we later discovered it was some rust on the cable itself, and replaced the cable with a new well lubricated one)! Man was that "an adventure". And FWIW, yes I did think that incident through, and managed to use a combination of turning the engine on/off and the brakes to get me safely to the side of the road. But again, that was a supposedly "safe" arrangement (with a normal cruise control), where the FOOT THROTTLE (cable) stuck, resulting in a vary heart pounding situation!

And also consider that the electronics and mechanics in a traditional cruise control are not immune to malfunctioning either. If the electronics malfunctions in a way that pulls the throttle cable and/or the mechanics in the cruise control get stuck, a traditional "safe" cruise control could potentially stick in the on position as well. And while (thankfully) it's never happened to me personally, I have heard of incidents of people with "cruise controls" (not throttle locks, full cruise controls) that stuck in the "on position", resulting in a vary dangerous situation!

So the bottom line here, is that any throttle control (be it the normal foot pedal, a hand throttle, or even a full cruise control) is controlling the engine speed of your car. So if any of these devices malfunctions, it can be very dangerous (potentially requiring quick thinking by the driver to avoid an accident).

But IMHO a simple mechanical (well lubricated) cable (such as both my car's foot pedal and my locking hand throttle use) is actually less likely to malfunction (due to the simple design having less to go wrong) than some fancy cruise control is to malfunction. So while any of these devices malfunctioning could be vary dangerous, a simple mechanical linkage is no more likely to malfunction than a fancy cruise control's linkages are (in fact the cruise control is probably more likely to malfunction in a dangerous way, if only because there is more that can go wrong with the cruise control)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trollgods View Post
a throttle lock will NOT work on a "drive by wire car" unless you jak it to the pedal itself if u were so inclined.
So don't use a device that is not appropriate for the controls of your car. Duh!

i.e. if your car doesn't happen to have the traditional throttle cable, than you shouldn't be using a throttle cable based "throttle lock" (or "hand throttle"). OTOH you may (potentially) still be able to use some "throttle lock" that is appropriate for the hookups to your car. For example, if the foot pedal on your "drive by wire car" actually controls a variable resister (fed into a throttle sensor), it would be pretty trivial to mount a hand controlled variable resister in parallel with the existing circuit (thereby giving that "drive by wire" car a locking "hand throttle").

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Originally Posted by trollgods View Post
Ive been installing cruises for over 18 yrs now in Ontario Canada, most cruise installs can be done for about $450 some more expensive depending on the cost of the SWITCH used. I would reccomend just about any rostra cruise they have been doing it a long time. they took over the cruise control division of hayes dayna many years ago.
That price sounds about right in cost, unless "Murphy's Law" works overtime during the installation, as it did when my mechanic tried to install a cruise control into my stick-shift CRX. After several attempts (including calls to the company, only to learn that my LED car lights interfered with the cruise control's sensor circuitry design, and this fact wasn't documented anywhere in the cruise control kit documentation) we eventually gave up and sent the unit back for a refund (and installed the much cheaper, and much easier to install, hand throttle instead).

Quote:
Originally Posted by trollgods View Post
cruises done on car with an actual throttle ARE like rocket science, cuz if they r done wrong someone could get killed.

cruises on a drive by wire car CAN be rocket science cuz if you do it wrong you could damage an expensive computer in ur car.
I respect your experience with cruise controls. However, by your own admission you stay away from simpler mechanical devices (for controlling throttle), so your experience with them is much more suspect.

OTOH I'm looking at this from a physics standpoint. i.e. What does my mechanical hand throttle do, what can go wrong with it, and what do I need to do to mitigate those risks? And from the physics standpoint, my hand throttle is doing exactly the same function as my traditional foot pedal, and pretty much has the same risks of sticking (which can be mitigated by making sure the wire is well lubed and in good shape). And the only other risk is "user error", i.e. (because the hand throttle locks) what happens if I get into an emergency situation, and can't think to turn it off? And even there I'm probably OK (even if some emergency happens too quickly to think about turning off the hand throttle), as the engine disengages from the wheels as soon as I press in the clutch (and the natural reflex of a stick shift driver to the need to stop in a panic, is to press both the clutch and the brake at the same time, which would have the side-effect of disengaging my "hand throttle" from the wheels, at the only "cost" being the engine racing a bit out of gear)!

And from a personal standpoint, it certainly seemed like "a black art" when my mechanic was trying to get that electronic cruise control kit installed in my CRX. So your comments about the difficulties of installing full cruise controls seems to be spot on. OTOH the "hand throttle" was (by comparison) "a piece of cake" to install (correctly), since all we had was a simple cable to properly mount to the same place as the existing foot throttle cable was already mounted to.

Again, I have nothing against cruise controls per se. Multiple vehicles in my house have traditional OEM cruise controls in them, and I do use them when I drive those vehicles.

I'm just disputing that "throttle locks" are inherently dangerous, when used by a driver that is THINKING about their driving (and is experienced with that specific throttle control). i.e. things like a "hand throttle" are dangerous in inexperienced hands (as are pretty much all "manual" controls in a car), but in experienced hands all you have done is move the "intelligence" out of the device and into the hands of the driver! In the hands of an inexperience driver (or even just one inexperienced with that throttle control), this could potentially be dangerous (as it expects a higher level of attention and thinking from the driver). But in the hands of a driver used to that control (i.e. a skilled driver who has practiced operating that specific control), such an arrangement should be every bit as safe as the more "automated" control (that a traditional "cruise control" uses).
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:17 PM   #39
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My 73 Alfa Romeo GTV 2000 had a hand throttle, that was used to keep the cold engine speed up with the Magneti Marelli toothed belt driven mechanical fuel injection.

A hand throttle 35 years ago. For that matter go back to the Model T with hand throttle and spark advance.


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Old 07-24-2008, 05:54 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DracoFelis View Post
such throttle locks work well on any road where the angle (and therefore the required amount of throttle to have an even speed) is fairly constant (be that a level road, a road gaining altitude, or one going down hill).
So DWL is not effective (or too much trouble with vastly varying speed) on short rolling hills? Most of my commute is defined by constant road angle changes. I haven't tried DWL mainly because I'm not interested, but partly for that reason too.

Quote:
BUT the exact same thing could be said about the existing foot throttle (which IMHO is even more likely to get stuck)!
More importantly, the hand throttle should be easier to unstick. I don't know if this is true of all cars, but in GM vehicles, pulling up on the gas pedal does not forcefully close the throttle; the pedal can only open the throttle, not close it. This can be demonstrated by setting the cruise control and pulling the pedal.

Quote:
I'm just disputing that "throttle locks" are inherently dangerous, when used by a driver that is THINKING about their driving (and is experienced with that specific throttle control). [...]
This issue is true of nearly every driving behavior and most modifications we discuss on this forum. Everything about what we do requires more thinking and more attention than one expects from a common non-hypermiling driver in an automatic.

In fact, all the extra attention, thought, and activity are part of the reason I hypermile. It gives me something to do. I love my scenic, low-traffic roads, and I love looking at the scenery...but it still gets boring.
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