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Old 05-27-2008, 08:28 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Snax View Post
Ok, I'll concede that I cannot presume to know everyone's circumstances with respect to being able to trade into or purchase something more economical, but I'm still gonna stand by the notion that 99% or more drivers made a choice at some point to drive what they drive. Even so, the writing has been on the wall for at least the last 7 years with gas prices inflating far in advance of the economy in general. Surely ANYBODY can come up with a more economical choice within that amount of time - even if that simply means moving closer to work, or working closer to home etc.

We went 6 months with only one car for our family and I rode mass transit or my bicycle during that time. As for geting the family around, we really didn't even NEED the one car based on our proximity to everything we need and access to mass transit.

Some people might contend that their mass transit is horrible if it even exists at all. I would contend that if it is an issue, then they need to move to where it is not horrible.

Obviously some people would still be victims of circumstance even there, however I think the generality of my position is valid for the vast majority of society who do not need their vehicles in the performance of their work.

You act like it would be nothing for a family to pick up and move just because it is closer to work or closer to mass transit. This is the most rediculous thing I've ever read. I would never move to be closer to a job. Jobs are a dime a dozen these days and nothing is forever anymore. You say people put themselves in these situations, buying big vehicles and too much house, etc... Well I say that if you can't at least afford to purchase gasoline to get to and from work, at least, then you should have either gone to college or picked a more lucrative career. You do have a choice in the matter, after all. I honestly can't believe some of the posts I read on here sometimes. *sigh*
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:30 PM   #62
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Also, since the US pretty ,uch owns Iraq - that has some of the largest oil reserves in the world - why aren't we pumping that stuff out of the ground as quickly as possible??
Because that was not the plan.. Keep in mind that you have an oilman as president and another oilman as vice president. I used to work in the oilfield and know more about that business than I really wish to.

Saddam switched to Euros from dollars for Iraqi oil in 2000, thus sealing his fate.

Here's what Cheney had to say about invading Iraq in 1994 shortly after Gulf War I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BEsZMvrq-I

And here's what Stormin' Norman Schwartzkopf had to say about it at nearly the same time..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jteZR77knz4

Things have turned out exactly as Cheney and Schwartzkopf predicted in 1994, eh?

"A dinosaur in a tar pit"..

Quote:
Furthermore, as the oil companies are largely vertically-integrated enterprises, why is it so bad that they are making profits when they largely do not control prices?
It's naive to think that the major oil companies have little control over oil prices. There are extremely significant barriers to entry in the oil business and the market is a good deal more closed than it appears.

Quote:
Lastly, I'm not sure the alternatives will materialize in time to have any affect. The environmentalists have largely tied the hand of politicians to make deals that end up in new nuke plants, oil refineries, etc. There is plenty of blame to go around.
*Everybody* is an environmentalist when it comes to building a refinery or nuke plant in their particular back yard. I've lived close to refineries, they are not pleasant neighbors..

Nukes are a little different, but by the time you include the monstrous decommissioning costs on nuke plants the energy from them is a lot more expensive than is generally thought.

Not to mention that we do not have a gasoline shortage, refinery capacity is adequate for demand, that is not what is driving up gas prices.

I've lived and driven through gasoline shortages, they don't look like what is happening now..

I used to take my car and fill up the tank and then siphon it for my motorcycle.. No shortages for me..
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:36 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by 96hb View Post
Well I say that if you can't at least afford to purchase gasoline to get to and from work, at least, then you should have either gone to college or picked a more lucrative career. You do have a choice in the matter, after all. I honestly can't believe some of the posts I read on here sometimes. *sigh*
Picking a lucrative career is a far more chancy proposition than you seem to think.

The are a huge number of college graduates with even post graduate degrees who are doing surprisingly menial jobs.. It's long past the point where a college degree was a guarantee of a good job, or even any job.
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Old 05-27-2008, 09:21 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by 96hb View Post
You act like it would be nothing for a family to pick up and move just because it is closer to work or closer to mass transit. This is the most rediculous thing I've ever read. I would never move to be closer to a job. Jobs are a dime a dozen these days and nothing is forever anymore.
Yeah . . . right . . . minimum wage jobs are a dime a dozen. Jobs that pay real living wages, provide health insurance, and vacation time however are a rare commodity.

Regardless, it is not my intent to suggest that relocating is nothing, but rather that the need for it is hardly due to sudden changes in the economy. If you live in the country and your wages are not keeping pace with inflation, yet the price of fuel to get into town for work is exceeding inflation, eventually you will be out of luck if closer viable employment opportunities do not exist - unless you move closer to work!

Like I stated before, these are not the options many people are willing to take, but at some point, there are no other practical options. The further one lives from their work, whether it is due to job choice or residence choice, the less credence I give to their complaints about fuel costs.

I CHOSE to purchase a home in town, within 5 miles of my employer. If my employer were to move a great distance away, I would have to strongly consider relocating with them, or search aggressively for another job closer to home. Either way, there's a sacrifice to be made - or it's not my place to gripe about it.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:29 AM   #65
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Buses aren't for everbody, that's for sure. There is often a significant time penalty to use them, but with a little foresight and schedule in hand, they still provide an extremely cost effective means for people to get around.

Y
O man, drove down to Atlanta, GA on July 4th weekend and took MARTA to an event I was going to. Then I was going to go to a family reunion. The Bus got me there on secudual, but the bus was 45 minutes late, rode the bus to the end of the line, had to wait another 30 min while the driver took a ((*&*&^ break and then finally got back to the train station, which was late also. Never made it to the family reunion.

Just recently a few weekends ago, I tried the train again, to simply walk to my destination. The train sat for a good 20+ min at the end of the line. This is not counting the wait time for the train itself.

Time, its non replenishable. I will now just drive to my destination on a rare jaunt down to Atlanta for now on. By the time I use the so called public transit on the weekend I can be where I was going and back home again on the same amount of change. Its just not worth the frustration.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:35 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by fumesucker View Post
Saddam switched to Euros from dollars for Iraqi oil in 2000, thus sealing his fate.
That's an interesting take on it. So the others that are doing the same are going to get invaded by the US?


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It's naive to think that the major oil companies have little control over oil prices. There are extremely significant barriers to entry in the oil business and the market is a good deal more closed than it appears.
I'm sure they have some control, but are they the sole arbiter of price? It would be interesting if you expounded on your comment by explaining how oil companies can do this.

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*Everybody* is an environmentalist when it comes to building a refinery or nuke plant in their particular back yard. I've lived close to refineries, they are not pleasant neighbors..
Indeed. However everybody seems to think that there is a free lunch when it comes to energy. These facilities have to be physically located somewhere.

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Nukes are a little different, but by the time you include the monstrous decommissioning costs on nuke plants the energy from them is a lot more expensive than is generally thought.
Exactly. Oil is by far the most energy dense material we can use for our energy needs. Bear in mind, though, that as oil prices continue to go up, people will seek alternatives and hopefully we'll weane ourselves from oil. It will be a long, painful, complicated process, though.

Quote:
Not to mention that we do not have a gasoline shortage, refinery capacity is adequate for demand, that is not what is driving up gas prices.
Interesting to hear this as the reports I've heard indicate that there is in fact a refinery capacity issue. Please explain in more detail.
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:47 AM   #67
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Since oil is a commodity whose price is controlled by world markets, why would you expect domestic drilling to bring prices down? The oil companies would pump it out of the ground and then sell it for 120+ bux per barrel and continue to make huge profits.
While domestic drilling would only do use good for about 2 or so years on the supply side. It would also slow down the speculation, which is the real driver behind higher gas prices right now.

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Originally Posted by dosco View Post
Also, since the US pretty ,uch owns Iraq - that has some of the largest oil reserves in the world - why aren't we pumping that stuff out of the ground as quickly as possible??
We can't even deliver power there yet, or clean drinking water, and you expect to get a large chunk of oil out?

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Originally Posted by dosco View Post
Furthermore, as the oil companies are largely vertically-integrated enterprises, why is it so bad that they are making profits when they largely do not control prices?
Because the news media and congress tells them otherwise.

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Originally Posted by dosco View Post
Lastly, I'm not sure the alternatives will materialize in time to have any affect. The environmentalists have largely tied the hand of politicians to make deals that end up in new nuke plants, oil refineries, etc. There is plenty of blame to go around.
This is the one thing I don't understand. In order to replace existing infrastructure, we have to build something else. Conservation with a growing population will only get you so far. As the dollar falls and manufacturing moves back to the US, energy consumption is only going to grow. Nor is the public going to pay 35 cents a kwh.

Windmills kill birds, can't build them.

Solar Power planets for cheaper kwh require transmission line. Can't build those either.

Nuke power...... NIMBY. (sigh) I would not mind them replacing coal burner I'm 30 miles down wind from with a few nuke reactors. Its one of the biggest polluters in the US. Funny thing, I get my power from a natural gas planet.

Plasma Inceneraters, to many unknowns with the waste/byproduct.

I could go on, but only so much time in a day.
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Old 05-28-2008, 05:01 AM   #68
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Not to mention that we do not have a gasoline shortage, refinery capacity is adequate for demand, that is not what is driving up gas prices.

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Originally Posted by dosco View Post


Interesting to hear this as the reports I've heard indicate that there is in fact a refinery capacity issue. Please explain in more detail.

Gas/Oil consumption is down 1.1% over last year. The actual gas price is being driven by the price of oil right now. Granted if oil was lower, then the refiners would be hard pressed.

http://greenhome.huddler.com/forum/t...-wsj?replies=1

The above link points to a WSJ article back in March.
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Old 05-28-2008, 05:59 AM   #69
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I guess I must just be lucky then, because both my wife and I are college graduates, she is a teacher and I am a computer systems analyst. We aren't rich, but we make good money. And our house is exactly 6 miles from each of our jobs. I am lucky in one respect though. I just got this job recently and my old job had me commuting 70 miles a day. All I can say is, the Lord is good.
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Old 05-28-2008, 06:26 AM   #70
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Back to the original question.

I think the current fuel prices are a necessary evil. I have a family who live fairly close. I wonder what they really think about my obsession with fuel mileage.

I also live less than 20 miles from a nuke plant, and an oil refinery, add in a nuke weapons station, and consider this area is probably on the top five list of every nuclear power that has ever considered attacking the US.

Pain at the pump is the driving force behind any chance to really fix this situation. The political tides are shifting. Instead of 20 years and 20 billion for no real progress, maybe now something might happen, but I am not optomistic.

The idiots in Washington would rather bury us in debt than do anything that might actually help. I dont want some pie in the sky line of BS about what is going to happen in 10 years. In 2000 the EPA created a document on hybrids that projected a 100% increase in efficiency by 2010.

In your dreams!

Now we have to lower interest rates, screw the old people on retirement, screw the children who can't vote. Let's bail out the speculators who rode around in gas hogs flipping houses and living the life while the rest of us idiots lived below our means and got out of debt.

The problem is we have used the spend but don't tax philosophy for 75 years, and the world has wised up to our total debt burden and said. Hmmm, no thanks we dont want to base our wealth on your money.

In twenty years my wife and I increased our net worth 20 fold. No magic or miracles. We saved half of what we earned.

If gas prices are hurting you its because you allowed the situation to happen.
That being said I feel for those who are having a tough time making ends meet.

Try making 1800 bucks in a year working 40 hours a week, sleeping in an unheated building, and paying a health club,so you might get a hot shower 15 minutes before they closed. No way you could afford a family at 38 years old.

regards
gary
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