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Old 10-21-2008, 07:22 AM   #11
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bobc455, Getting something for nothing appears to be the new sales pitch. Without knowing how much conversion efficiency loss was present, I went with the scammers and figured 100%.

a_a189, the advantage is that even at 14% conversion from photon to electron, that's 14% that was 'free'. Another 80% loss to H2, and another 80% loss to motion and the net return (.14 x .2 x .2, or 0.0056%) of the input power is still an infinite amount more than the 'free' price of that input power. Who cares how much is lost when the initial supply is unlimited?
If the bicycle generator works only going downhill, stores and then provides power for uphill, where is the illogic?

p.s. I'm looking for funding (a couple of hundred dollars might be enough), for construction of a proof of concept operational model of a 'perpetual motion' device I've had in mind for decades. Maybe not even as productive as 0.0056%, but it needs zero input energy so it's all gain.
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:29 AM   #12
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african andy,

I agree with you on the hydrogen fore front but also realize that all electric has its own problems. range, speed, DOT approval. most don't have any of them in a package that the average american can use. most of the ones that go 55+ miles per hour are 3-wheelers so they can get around the safety of a regular gasoline car.

also remember the charge times. the fastest I have heard of is still around 3 hours and requires a special high current line to be installed in your house.

here is an answer to america's dependency on oil (notice AN answer, not THE answer)
http://www.myersmotors.com/

the question is, are you willing to sacrifice to get it? speed is good and so is range but it is 30k and seats one person. safety may also come into play. I actually considered this until I saw the price tag. that was truely a slap in the face.

I am waiting for the compressed air cars to start making their way to the states. the concept is sound and application remains to be seen in our sometimes hilly environments but we will see.
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Old 10-21-2008, 12:06 PM   #13
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The idea of solar powered battery charging is that it is a one time cost and the panels are at 20 to 22% efficiency if you check out Sun Power.

Making an electric car is not CHEEP by any means - think about $20-30,000 for the lithium batteries and $5,000 for motor and controller then start on the conversion. The HHO process is doable for maybe $200 if you shop around and build most of it yourself. I have seen stainless steel wall switch plates used for the HHO generator purchased from Home Depot. Some hoses and rubber stoppers or plastic pipe fitting mounted on a mason jar with a couple of wires to the 12 volts on your deep cycle battery or car battery and you are ready to go.
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Old 10-21-2008, 12:16 PM   #14
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yes it is cheap but what do you get for the money. I have yet to see anyone on here start up a gaslog that showed a significant increase from HHO.

most that don't start on this site waving the HHO banner and actually do try it, say that there is either no change or very little (in the negative way) they are then instructed to spend even more money to buy enhancers that may run their cars lean and most decide not to put their cars at risk.

that has been my observations about it.

you also have the spammer from time to time that says that their mielage went up from X to X but they usually don't even tell you what kind of car it is...and they post an affiliated site to sell the products that they praise

*edit* jangeo, how did you get your gassavers sticker for your car? I have been wanting one and have had very little luck getting one.
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Old 10-21-2008, 12:30 PM   #15
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Yeah I should just build one and try it on my xB - I just don't want any hydrogen embrittlement in my engine. If I get my hands on some stainless steel sheeting I will build one since I have all sorts of ways of making it run on batteries with variable voltage controllers good for over 100 amps.

The GasSavers sticker I make on my friends vinyl cutting machine but he packed it up so it is not available - also the hypermiler sticker on the right side that you can't see in the photo.
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Old 10-21-2008, 12:44 PM   #16
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that is awesome that your friend made it. I thought that was one that this site was selling. obviously I was wrong. that is good quality and looks really clean.

you see what I am saying about the entire HHO thing though. I am not willing to risk my engine for it either. I would rather be fine with what I have than the promises of high numbers and no data to back it up.
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Old 10-21-2008, 07:51 PM   #17
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No my friend didn't cut it - I did on his machine. Just plain white vinyl. Of course once I got the cutter running he put me to work.

Yeah making HHO is a little bit of work but if the concept is correct there could be some interesting gains and like I posted before if you can make enough HHO to actually get the engine to run a little on it then you basically make your car a plug in hybrid. The point would be a motor turning the engine vs HHO making the gasoline burn more efficiently or run completely on HHO via a second battery. Something tells me that an engine at idle takes in a lot more air than we could possibly generate with an HHO generator. Of course a simple test would be to make some gas and bottle it then feed it to the engine while driving down the road and observe the ScanGauge.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:03 AM   #18
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I need to clarify a few things.

I have not yet installed the hydrogen generator in my truck yet.
The size of my marine battery is 120 amp hours and in no way will it be connected to my engines electrical system.
The solar panel is made for 12 volt batteries supplying 15.4 volts in daytime at 5 watts making it trickle charger.
Cost of solar panel was $40.00.
The panel measures 14 in. by 11 in. making for easy placement in the vehicle.
Made by Coleman.

I have a unique situation where I drive only 15 minutes to town, 30 min. round trip. I do not work and do not drive every day. If it takes a day and a half to recharge that fits my situation just fine. If I need it before that I can always have the battery fast charged.
I am not trying to make the vehicle run on hydrogen only and this is not a fuel cell.
I do not know if hydrogen even works as a supplement to gasoline but i'm going to try. The entire system has only cost a little over $200.00. I built everything myself.
I will post all my findings, good or bad.
I don't have access to a dyno but I can have emissions and other diagnostics checked.
I have no connection to anyone that sells or builds these devices nor will I.
I do not claim that this works, only trying for myself.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:12 AM   #19
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I am actually interested in your experiment. I think you may be limited by the size of your solar panel but you have a valid concept. if you were to fast charge the battery though, it would skew the numbers because that electricity is no longer provided free of charge (like with the solar panel).

the concept is there but the execution of it.

start a gas log and take some MPG figures now so you can see the difference. don't prove it to any of us, but to yourself. I have often thoght that if you can take away the losses, there might be something there....well...possibly. still don't like having to use enhancers like EFIE and map adjusters and what not.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:34 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEEF View Post
still don't like having to use enhancers like EFIE and map adjusters and what not.
I just got an idea.

The reason why that stuff is required is, if I understand correctly, proposed as follows: If you just inject HHO, you're adding fuel but no air, effectively making a rich mixture. It's not producing more work, it's just burning the HHO worthlessly. So, you lean the gasoline out. Now you're flowing the same air and burning the same amount of fuel, some of which is HHO.

Am I correct in my understanding of the reason why that equipment is usually recommended by HHO proponents?

If so, how about instead of trying to fool or bypass the ECU, you let it continue to mix gasoline and air using its own sensors and logic...and feed it your own HHO + air mixture? Now the gas/air mixture is stoich, the HHO/air mixture is stoich (or whatever), and the whole combination is properly mixed.

I guess the hardest part would be measuring the HHO.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

While doing all that thinking, which has caused smoke to pour out of my ears and gear-grinding sounds to emanate from my cranium, I realized something...when you add HHO to your air/fuel, you're not richening the mixture at all. The two H's already come with their own O to recombine with; HHO is at the optimum mixture all on its own. When you burn HHO, you're just combining the O with the H's.

I think my level of skepticism about the usual HHO strategy has just gone way up.
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