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Old 05-15-2008, 06:15 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by 1cheap1 View Post
I get my gas at Valero, i just found out that they quit selling non ethanol gas as of may 5th or sooner. All company's will have to sell ethanol to avoid the risk of lawsuits from MTBE in gasoline. We will just have to adjust i guess.
In my area some years ago we had a gasoline leak that contaminated (with MTBE) the drinking water for a whole town (Pascoag, RI). It was a huge fiasco and it still costs a lot today.

I can't remember when I last saw a pump that didn't say it contains 10% ethanol.
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Old 05-15-2008, 12:46 PM   #12
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So if ethanol is high in oxygen and sucks water out of the air then we would have to keep air out of the fuel tank or keep it to a minimum. Would we have to replace the tank with some sort of soft bladder type tank that would collapse as needed? Or a series of small cells that would keep the air out of the others?
Yes, you are correct, ethanol is hydroscopic. But since the water links on a molecular level, unlike gasoline where it puddles at the bottom of the tank, it reacts much like water injection would on a gasoline engine. Of course, too much water would definitely cause inefficiency and possible running problems. When ethanol or any alkyl fuel is sold pure it is called 'neat' ethanol or 'neat' methanol. It is considered pure at 95% since it is so difficult to keep it free of water. Only dessicant filters used at the time of operation have been able to get it slightly in excess of 98% pure. Collapsible bladders have been used in the past, but mostly to protect aluminum fuel cells from corrosion because alcohol attacks aluminum. Alcohol is especially agressive when water is present and you burn it. The heated combination creates formic and performic acids during combustion. That is the reason why piston tops in alcohol engines look like they've been sand blasted. Specially formulated oils to be used with neat alcohol are recommended since alcohol attacks conventional oils and has been known to wash cylinder walls and accelerate wear. Ten percent gasoline known as E90 has been proven to nullify the problem; but, E85 became the government standard because oil companies always find a way to keep their hands in the cookie jar and they have the wherewithall to choose the kinds and sizes of cookies.

If one wishes to replace the fuel tank, plastic fuel tanks are available for purchase, and fuel lines that are lined with teflon and butyl are recommended if you don't want to keep changing your rubber hoses every couple of months. Just remember you have to purchase the special AN (Aircraft National) fittings that fit the fuel lines that are made by the same company. EX: Earls, Russels, both companies that make them. I have installed them on all my driven pre-ethanol and classic cars to avoid leaking gas and the constant expense of replacement of rubber hoses.

Neat ethanol produces its greatest energy at 7.0:1 air/fuel ratio where it rivals the btus of energy in gasoline. But who wants to drive a vehicle that gets half the mileage. Neat methanol is even worse at 4.0:1 air/fuel ratio where it produces about 20% more power than gasoline, but the wet volume flowing through the intake runner displaces enough area that intake runners and valves must be enlarged to compensate. That equals an engine specifically designed to run on methanol.
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:05 PM   #13
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Great explanation my friend.

Nissan Titan 13 mpg city on e10>>>>>9 mpg on e85.

regards
gary
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Old 05-15-2008, 02:37 PM   #14
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Crazy, my car runs better on e10 than on regular gasoline. Probably some of the mods I've done to it but straight 86 octane pings all the time, produces less power and drops my fuel economy. I'd actually readjusted my cams and ignition timing for winter and pulled off a few 29-31mpg city tanks normal driving (22mpg epa), now I'm running regular 86 again and I needed to re-adjust my timing. Last four tanks? 25.4mpg.

I don't like the stupid stations around here only have E10 in the winter months. A station around here has gasohol but I get lost going to it.
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Old 05-15-2008, 03:37 PM   #15
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Neat ethanol produces its greatest energy at 7.0:1 air/fuel ratio where it rivals the btus of energy in gasoline. But who wants to drive a vehicle that gets half the mileage. Neat methanol is even worse at 4.0:1 air/fuel ratio *snip*
So, running one at gasoline AFR's would be a form of leanburning then?
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Old 05-15-2008, 04:09 PM   #16
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So, what I figure is that E10 has a higher running octane, or better knock prevention than standard "87" octane. Ergo suggestion to try advancing timing. Look around for ignition advance suggestions for your vehicle, if you find an "Advance x degrees but only run premium" then that would probably run okay on E10. Was driving a tempo that ran like crap on anything but Sunoco, which states it uses ethanol, I figure it was carbed all to crap because it had over 200,000 miles on.

A "benefit" of burning water contaminated ethanol and getting formic and/or acetic acid forming is that it will first attack the hotter spots in the combustion chamber, the sharp edges, eroding them, thus you actually have your motor further detonation proofed as it runs
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:39 AM   #17
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My '94 Acura loves the E85, my mileage has maybe gone down maybe 17-18% but E85 is now 21% cheaper in Omaha. The amazing part is how clean the E85 runs. Even in my 202k mile engine, the oil comes out only a dark tan after 5000+ miles. A lot less carbon deposits.
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