Found ethanol free gas station!

[KU40]

Originally Posted by theholycow

What do they have instead of ethanol for oxygenation/octane adjuster?

Here in RI, we had MTBE until a leaky tank contaminated the water supply for a whole town. Ever since then, it's all about ethanol.

I don't know? I doubt the attendant would know if I went in and asked him, either. My guess would be MTBE, there has been some contamination with that in the state. But they can add a lot of stuff to gasoline that may surprise you, like chlorinated solvents (1,2-DCA, etc.)

Also, ethanol is worse than other additives or gasoline alone as far as contamination is concerned. Gasoline and most of its other additives are LNAPLs, so they will float on top of the water table and are *relatively* easy to clean up if spilled. But with ethanol added in, it makes the gasoline mix much easier with ground water and makes it more difficult to clean up. Not to mention it's a DNAPL, as was pointed out here a few posts ago with the graduated cylinder test. So getting it out is much harder once it's parked under the aquifer. One of my college professors said that they transport the ethanol and gasoline to the stations separately then mix once there for this reason, so that if there's a spill on the way it's easier to remediate.

[theholycow]

That kinda makes sense about ethanol-mixed gasoline being hard to clean up, but...MTBE is extremely poisonous in very miniscule concentrations. A couple drops gets into a water supply and it's no good.

If they're transported separately (Jay, do you know if that's true?), it would just as likely be so they only have to deliver one grade to every tank at every gas station, and just mix in enough ethanol to raise each one to the appropriate octane level. If they did ship separately they'd need to both arrive at the same time or close the gas station between deliveries so the octane rating doesn't suffer.

Ethanol makes sense to the oil companies and to the government as an additive because it oxygenates and raises the octane at the same time, instead of handling two additives....well, that's all if I understand it right.

[KU40]

Originally Posted by theholycow

That kinda makes sense about ethanol-mixed gasoline being hard to clean up, but...MTBE is extremely poisonous in very miniscule concentrations. A couple drops gets into a water supply and it's no good.

The cleanup level here in kansas of MTBE is 20 micrograms per liter. Benzene is actually one of the worst things in petroleum, its cleanup level is 5 micrograms per liter, same with 1,2-DCA. But 20 for MTBE is still really low, as most other constituents in gasoline are in the 500-10,000 micrograms/liter range.

Just a fun little fact, since it's my job to know

[Jay2TheRescue]

Sorry I missed your post HC.

No, they're not transported separately. Most tanker trucks that we got in had 4 compartments inside the trailer, so they could haul 4 grades. When I worked for 7-11 they would bring us 2 compartments of 87, 1 premium, and 1 midgrade. When I worked for the Gov't fuel station on MCCDEC Quantico we would get 2 tanks of premium, and 2 tanks with 87. Then one of the premiums was dumped into the midgrade tank at the station with one of the 87's to make midgrade.

Any additives came already mixed in the gasoline.

-Jay

[Mentalic]

Unfortunately ethanol is in all gas now since MTBE was banned in 2008. The refinery were I work has mothballed its MTBE unit and it will never run again...

Ethanol is added at the terminals because it does not ship well in pipelines since it picks up water so easily...

My truck really don't like ethanol gas and gets noticeably less fe, say 2mpg! I really wonder if the net effect is worse pollution? I mean all the gasoline it takes in the production of ethanol, then all the cars get worse FE so they burn more fuel. Just seems like a bad idea shoved down on us.

[Jay2TheRescue]

Originally Posted by Mentalic

My truck really don't like ethanol gas and gets noticeably less fe, say 2mpg! I really wonder if the net effect is worse pollution? I mean all the gasoline it takes in the production of ethanol, then all the cars get worse FE so they burn more fuel. Just seems like a bad idea shoved down on us.

Those are my thoughts exactly...

[Mentalic]

Its very weird how such little ethanol affects my truck, same fuel does not affect my son's Civic. He's still getting 45 like always.

Ive noticed it with my 4Runner for years though, even one small bottle of injector cleaner would kill my FE. Must be some sensitivity in the emission control system thats at the core of this problem.

[Fueltesters]

Originally Posted by Mentalic

Unfortunately ethanol is in all gas now since MTBE was banned in 2008. The refinery were I work has mothballed its MTBE unit and it will never run again...

Ethanol is added at the terminals because it does not ship well in pipelines since it picks up water so easily...

My truck really don't like ethanol gas and gets noticeably less fe, say 2mpg! I really wonder if the net effect is worse pollution? I mean all the gasoline it takes in the production of ethanol, then all the cars get worse FE so they burn more fuel. Just seems like a bad idea shoved down on us.

MTBE was never in "All" Gas - Ethanol did replace MTBE in th U.S. for oxygenating gas in targeted cities (See 1990 Clean Air Act and revisions since then).

The reason you've seen the switchover to E10 widespread during the past few years is due to the quotas/mandate for increase in "Renewable Fuel" in the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS).
Nowhere in the federal EPA RFS did they indicate meeting quota with E10.
It's because the U.S. plans for rapid acceptance of E85 (85% ethanol) failed (used only in Flex-Fuel vehicles) - Most states have chosen to meet their federal quota for RFS by blending up to 10% ethanol in all/most public gas sold.

I have always supported E85 (until a more cost-efficient and safe) alternative fuel/vehicle is widely available. I do not support E10, except for replacing MTBE in high pollution areas.

Few have rushed to buy a FFV here in U.S.- Many own FFV's and don't even know it - check gas cap) - And those, such as me that support anything that will decrease our foreign oil dependency, can't even find a local E85 gas pump - And when we do, the cost is prohibitve (only few cents less than E10) despite E85 gas reducing mpg about 40%.
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BTW, MTBE replaced lead in 1975...Ethanol replaced MTBE by mid 1980's...California was first state to ban MTBE on 1/4/2004...2 yrs. later, by 2006 MTBE banned in almost all states, due to groundwater contamination and health risks..."Ethanol History Timeline" and other interesting ethanol/E10 facts can be found on my company website.

MTBE is still found in some gas additives and racing fuel, used as an octane enhancer.

In addition to RFS, refer to Energy Policy Act (2005) and Energy Independence and Security Act (EISA -2007) to better understand why ethanol production/distribution has increased.
Also visit ACE (American Coalition for Ethanol) - the leading organization for promoting ethanol - This month ACE went to Washington seeking approval to increase E10 to E15! -15% ethanol in conventional fuel - Not a good idea, ACE should go back to focusing on promotion of E85.
News articles on E15 can be found on my business website or by doing a Google keyword search for "E15 and ACE".