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Old 04-19-2008, 02:32 AM   #21
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Ford and GM should spend less $ on lobbying congress for protection and favors and more on R&D?

That tax break or whatever for Hummers and so forth...etc.

ANYTHING to keep the "growth at any cost" thing going?

...

All a part of the COMPLEX?

http://priceofoil.org/climateofwar/

...

Patriotism is a religion, the egg from which wars are hatched.": Guy de Maupassant
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Leading the perpetually ignorant and uninformed into the light of scientific knowledge. Did I really say that?

a new policy....I intend to ignore the nescient...a waste of time and energy.
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Old 04-19-2008, 06:39 AM   #22
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You folks are missing some of the GM sales on Hybrids. What about the Saturn Aura, Chevy Malibu and the Saturn View? Yes they are just bass systems but the technology can be used on any car product.

I saw the post of the 80 Suburban. Remember that vehicles certification was probably done at 55mph, instead of the new highway speed cert. which hurt all manufactures! Check last years rating of the Prius versus this years. Plus the 80's vehicle weighed a whole lot less than todays Suburban.

Weight is a huge problem. Geo Metros weighed in at 1650 for a two door versus over 2400 for an Aveo. Added weight for safety hurts FE!!!!!!!!!
Plus everyone now wants every creature comfort known to man. All these things hurt the FE.

I'm not an advocate of the SUV movement but the Hybrids do get better mileage in the city loop than a Toyota Camary. Which is no small feat. They were put on the drawing board when the SUV was KING. GM could not just stop the project they were to far into it. They are now finding that they can make money on cars again, so lets hope to see some changes in the future. GM should be able to downsize this tech. to fit in other vehicles.

Also the comment on they are not in many dealers is true. $50,000 may seem high to some, just compare the prices of all SUV's. Check out CSI Vegas they are using them on there show.
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Old 04-19-2008, 07:31 AM   #23
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You folks are missing some of the GM sales on Hybrids. What about the Saturn Aura, Chevy Malibu and the Saturn View?
What about them, they get poor mileage, it stinks of an attempt to kill the hybrid concept by "proving" they won't sell.
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Old 04-19-2008, 10:50 AM   #24
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Well GM's 2 mode hybrids are pretty miserable so I'm not surprised. More badge engineering than anything. Something GM knows well.
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Old 04-21-2008, 06:06 AM   #25
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Thumbs down

Why is anything else expected of the General?
They took a well designed, small bore, small block diesel V8 engine, and gave it to the accountants, who, in all their MBA wisdom, dictated that retaining the same bore as the 5.7 gasoline version of the block would save about $20 per engine. GM appears to have intentionally set back diesel engine passenger cars to the point that they still haven't recovered in the US.
They took a multi-displacement V8, their V8-6-4, and messed that up so badly that it has been decades until the competitors have tried it again. GM discontinued the program, and reprogrammed the cars computers to be V8 only, no injector drop, because of a "lack of sales".
They took an extremely efficient, battery powered, two seat commuter car and refused to sell them to those clamoring for just such a vehicle. They were leases only. GM flat refused to sell any when the leases expired, and even refused to extend the leases. GM has now crushed all the EV-1 and blames the demise on a "lack of sales" without specifying that THEY were the cause.
The present "lack of sales" of their mild hybrids (Dear GM, big batteries to run the A/C with the engine off at traffic lights are NOT hybrids!) are yet another link in this chain of intentional failures as "proof" to congress that the US buying public does not really want hybrids.
Their concept hybrid (the name escapes me at the moment) will get 200+ miles per charge and umpteen hundred mph and tow Santa Catalina island back to the CA mainland, but only once some ficticious battery becomes commercially available at a price reasonable to them. Hell, No, GM aren't developing the battery technology. What? Do you really think GM want this to succeed?
The thread's title would be as accurate if the middle were omitted:
GM Miserable.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:04 PM   #26
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I wouldn't be so hard on GM. They have done some things right.

For example, they've always had decent mileage for their full size trucks/SUVs, with early use of things like lockup torque converters. Better than Ford anyway. Also, Saturns were pretty good small cars, with long lives and Civic-like mileage.

Remember the EV-1 was a tiny aluminum 2-seater like the Insight, which also had terrible, possibly manufacture-limited sales. Pretty vindictive to crush all of them though.

The concept hybrid is the Volt, but it's just Vapor so far. They really did make the EV-1 though, and it stomped on the other electrics. That's what's frustrating about GM: they can do better, but mostly don't.
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Old 04-21-2008, 09:14 PM   #27
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Also, Saturns were pretty good small cars, with long lives and Civic-like mileage.
Were, were, were.... now they've decided that Saturn isn't an "import fighter" brand in the sense of making good, cheap, efficient cars, they've Acurified Leximated or Infinitated it or something and now say they are intending to compete with VW/Audi/BMW/Mercedes!!!
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:50 AM   #28
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I wouldn't be so hard on GM. They have done some things right.

For example, they've always had decent mileage for their full size trucks/SUVs, with early use of things like lockup torque converters. Better than Ford anyway. Also, Saturns were pretty good small cars, with long lives and Civic-like mileage.
.
Saturns are good cars but, there not really GM. They are Opels. Opel seems to be a good car except for the Catera.
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:14 PM   #29
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Wow!
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Old 04-23-2008, 01:23 PM   #30
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perhaps they should have included a CD of loud truck mufflers to play while in hybid mode. They just don't understand the customer.
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