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Old 10-07-2007, 05:41 PM   #51
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Lolz. The oil and auto industry solidified their position in the marketplace decades ago, they have no need to kill off anyone. Their products do a good enough job of that for them...
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I think if i could get that type of FE i would have no problem driving a dildo shaped car.
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Old 10-08-2007, 02:25 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by phantomcow2 View Post
Hey, I ended up canceling my order. Basically, I am making it myself.
Too bad. Would have liked to see what results they could manage.

My own opinion on DIY vs a tested system is that is SEEMS cheaper to DIY...but by the time you do several revisions and so forth...it isn't. $800 or so is a large investment for uncertain technology...but there is the guarantee. It's the RESEARCH you are paying for...not so much the hardware.

You should look into tweaking the sensors?

Also check out...?

http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/newsletter.html

...has info on the expected contribution of the hydrogen generator and other mods...he makes the point that it's the SYSTEM that counts.
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a new policy....I intend to ignore the nescient...a waste of time and energy.
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Old 10-08-2007, 11:30 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by ZugyNA View Post
My own opinion on DIY vs a tested system is that is SEEMS cheaper to DIY...but by the time you do several revisions and so forth...it isn't. $800 or so is a large investment for uncertain technology...but there is the guarantee. It's the RESEARCH you are paying for...not so much the hardware.
usually thats the case in similar systems but... this is a TOTALLY different system. and has been replicated by many other people. The project is open source and is unlike anything else.
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Old 10-09-2007, 02:03 AM   #54
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As far as I can figure it....generally a hydrogen generator might add 15% to your mpg...about the same as a 50% under drive pulley? Can't use both though.
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:15 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ZugyNA View Post
...generally a hydrogen generator might add 15% to your mpg...
Where has this EVER been replicated by ANYONE? Has there been any justification (controlled study) for spending time and money on hydrogen generators?
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
Where has this EVER been replicated by ANYONE? Has there been any justification (controlled study) for spending time and money on hydrogen generators?
- I don't think there is any doubt that they work on Diesel engines :

Hydrogen Mileage Booster for Diesel Engines
http://www.energistx.com/energy/libe...ELbooster.html
Quote:
Start saving $5,000-$25,000 annually per vehicle AND reduce global warming emissions in your fleet with new Hydrogen Assist technology for diesel trucks. Increase your fuel efficiency by 10-30% with on-board, on-demand hydrogen enrichment designed specifically for heavy-duty commercial grade performance with both diesel and bio-diesel. With fuel prices feeling like highway robbery, reducing petroleum dependency and consumption in the commercial and trucking industry is key to our national and individual economic wellbeing. Turn your rig into an efficient clean-burning hydrogen hybrid vehicle. We install it for you! For Diesel Fleets Only
...
Mileage Booster for Diesel............................................ ..............................$7,800.00
Includes set up and installation. Call to today for an appointment.
Hydrogen Injection Proven in Real-World Usage
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=195

Fossil-Fuel Stopgap May Virtually Eliminate Auto Emissions
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=44

Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company Ltd
http://www.chechfi.ca/index.html

CHEC Newsletter - May 2007 Newsletter
http://www.chechfi.ca/chec_newslette...vol2_iss06.pdf
Quote:
2007 has already seen CHEC achieve a number of significant milestones. Over and above our ongoing participation in all the large truck shows in North America (and many specialty and local shows, as well), CHEC has been invited to participate in a number of important international conferences.
These have included the largest environmental conference in the Middle East (Environment 2007 in Abu Dhabi), the Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Expo in Tokyo and the National Hydrogen Association Conference in San Antonio. The Tokyo Expo is the largest Hydrogen Industry trade show in the world, with 25,000 people attending over four days. That show generated contacts in Japan, Korea, China, Singapore, Taiwan, Malaysia, Thailand ? even Finland! Over the past year, Steve Gilchrist has been invited to speak about Hydrogen Fuel Injection at nine different international conferences and, at most of those conferences, CHEC has also had a display booth to show off the newest HFI models. We already have invitations to participate in five more conferences this year, on three different continents, as part of our ongoing efforts to better educate industry, governments and researchers about the important role that HFI can play in the global transition to an all hydrogen economy.
Test Results and Reports
http://www.chechfi.ca/dealer_informa...tm#testresults

Hydrogen Injection PDF ...
http://www.chechfi.ca/pdfs/hydrogen_injection.pdf
Quote:
Here is a synopsis of a sampling of the research that has been done:

In 1974 John Houseman and D.J/Cerini of the Jet Propulsion Lab, California Institute of Technology produced a report for the Society of Automotive Engineers entitled "On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine".

In 1974 F.W. Hoehn and M.W. Dowy of the Jet Propulsion Lab, prepared a report for the 9th Inter society Energy Conversion Engineering Conference, entitled "Feasibility Demonstration of a Road Vehicle Fueled with Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline." In the early eighties George Vosper P. Eng., ex-professor of Dynamics and Canadian inventor, designed and patented a device to transform internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen. He later affirms: "A small amount of hydrogen added to the air intake of a gasoline engine would enhance the flame velocity and thus permit the engine to operate with leaner air to gasoline mixture than otherwise possible. The result, far less pollution with more power and better mileage." In 1995, Wagner, Jamal and Wyszynski, at the Birmingham, of University Engineering, Mechanical and Manufacturing>, demonstrated the advantages of "Fractional addition of hydrogen to internal combustion engines by exhaust gas fuel reforming." The process yielded benefits in improved combustion stability and reduced nitrogen oxides and hydrocarbon emissions. Roy MacAlister, PE of the American Hydrogen Association states the "Use of mixtures of hydrogen in small quantities and conventional fuels offers significant reductions in exhaust emissions" and that "Using hydrogen as a combustion stimulant it is possible for other fuels to meet future requirements for lower exhaust emissions in California and an increasing number of additional states. Relatively small amounts of hydrogen can dramatically increase horsepower and reduce exhaust emissions."
Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company Product Brochure
http://www.chechfi.ca/pdfs/productbrochure.pdf
Attachment 976

- The hydrogen-boost guy is saying the same thing :

Stressed Combustion and Hydrogen Boost - August 2007
http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/August%202007.html
Quote:
Summary: Stressed combustion conditions can benefit from hydrogen assist. Techniques can be used to improve normally good mileage by forcing the vehicle to operate with an ultra-lean air/fuel mixtures and relieving that stressed combustion condition with hydrogen assist. But, adding hydrogen assist alone to a vehicle not already operating in stressed combustion conditions WILL NOT increase mileage.
Diesel Dynamometer Testing Analysis - September 2007
http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/September%202007.html
Quote:
So, what if we apply this to driving a diesel car or diesel pickup, or even a diesel tractor trailer pulling an empty trailer, or no trailer at all? Will we get better mileage with hydrogen Boost? The answer as usual is, ?It depends.? If your normal driving is just putt-putting around at near idle and never getting into high throttle settings, then you might actually reduce your mileage with Hydrogen Boost. But if you normal driving it above 1100 RPM and at medium to heavy throttle settings I would expect a reduction in fuel used and an increase in fuel mileage. If your vehicle is pulling heavy loads or going at high speed and high wind resistance, I would expect an outstanding improvement in mileage with Hydrogen Boost.
- What this means is that if you use your diesel engine under heavy duty work site and/or trucking transport conditions (not feather-foot hypermiling), the hydrogen-booster will work *and* assist in emissions. To make it work for hypermiling, you need a complicated system in addition to the hydrogen generator to make the system work. Here is an interesting MIT article :

Fuzzy Pareto Frontiers in Multidisciplinary System Architecture Analysis
http://web.mit.edu/deweck/www/PDF_ar...-2004-4553.pdf
Quote:
The US passenger car fleet is largely powered by relatively low tech gasoline engines, hard to beat for their low cost and capability to comply with the strictest emissions standards in the world. The ?European solution? does not make economic sense for the US. Even if the significant technical hurdles to comply with US emissions regulations can be overcome for diesel engines, the cost differential between gasoline and diesel engines would be such that the payback period exceeds the life of the vehicle.

A new approach that holds promise to significantly reduce national fuel consumption and greenhouse gas emissions and do so in an economically attractive manner is a hydrogen enhanced internal combustion engine. The plasma fuel reformer at the heart of this concept delivers a gaseous mixture containing hydrogen and carbon monoxide that enables both an extension of the charge dilution limit as well as significant engine knock attenuating properties12,13. It has been shown14,15,16,17 that only a small fraction (20-30%) of the fuel going into the engine needs to be reformed into hydrogen rich gas in order to gain significant benefits.

Hydrogen addition affects combustion in an internal combustion engine in several ways. First of all, hydrogen addition can significantly increase flame speed. Flame speed is a primary factor in defining the lean limit - excess air slows down the combustion process to the point of not completing combustion in the time given during the power stroke. Effectively, hydrogen can extend the lean limit by off-setting the reduction in flame speed due to excess air. Secondly, recent work has shown that a hydrogen rich gas can enhance the octane rating of the overall cylinder mixture. This finding has the potential for increasing compression ratio, leading to direct gains in engine efficiency. Figure 1 and 2 illustrate the effect of hydrogen addition and how new system architectures emerge by the shifting of constraints.
Attachment 977



- One of the authors of the MIT article is Rudolf M. (Rudy) Smaling, who wrote the following :

How a Hydrogen-Boosted Gasoline Engine Works
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/how-a-...ine-works1.htm
Quote:
A small amount of hydrogen made on-board by the reformer is added to the normal intake air and gasoline mixture. This greatly improves overall combustion quality by allowing nearly twice as much air for a given amount of fuel introduced into the combustion chamber. This is more energy efficient because it saves energy by reducing the amount of engine pumping needed.

Fuel efficiency is also gained through the use of higher engine compression ratios made possible by the hydrogen-rich charge characteristics. A hydrogen-boosted fuel system also saves energy because of the remarkably low amount of electrical energy needed to power the reformer. According to the developers, it needs less than 75 watts, which is less than the electric needs of one standard headlight.

An industry-accepted virtual vehicle analysis based on engine test data indicated the potential for a 20 percent to 30 percent improvement in fuel economy for a turbocharged downsized version of the hydrogen-boosted engine when compared with conventional gasoline engines.
CarloSW2
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:12 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ZugyNA View Post
about the same as a 50% under drive pulley?
uhm... go and google it..

and right now, we are doing a study, id say just wait and see!!

i give up on this subject till someone has updates
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Old 10-09-2007, 07:45 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
...
So no controlled studies then, and mechanics making $1000 a day installing this HAFC kit on gas cars... terrific. Please, show me a controlled study that it isn't all button soup.

I liked the MIT paper best, it even had a saturn DOCH BSFC map , but it was not a real world evaluation of a physical model, mostly MATLAB number crunching with provided data. It was meant as an exercise in Multidisciplinary System Architecture Analysis. But now Smaling is in business apparently. Even so, the predicted model required reforming of 20-30 percent of the fuel with hydrogen and carbon monoxide and offered 20-30% MPG improvements AFTER replacing your engine with a smaller engine and installing a turbocharger, LOL.

The folks that phantomcow2 is messing around with are claiming 100 mpg SUVs with their stuff. Work with me here, we don't want to encourage charlatains with more misinformation and money? I don't want people getting burned out from saving gas because of rip-offs.

This is something that should be reproducable, but who has independently reproduced befreetechs (or Smalings) claims with this kit who wasn't in it for the money?
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Old 10-09-2007, 08:42 PM   #59
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dood, if you don't think it will work for you, end of subject.
your warnings have been accounted for.

Projects can be opensourced and cheap, what i like. Of course, i do agree on you skewbe, I wont be spendin $1000 outa my pocket and find it doesnt work.
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Old 10-10-2007, 10:03 AM   #60
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skewbe -

Quote:
Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
So no controlled studies then, and mechanics making $1000 a day installing this HAFC kit on gas cars... terrific. Please, show me a controlled study that it isn't all button soup.

I liked the MIT paper best, it even had a saturn DOCH BSFC map , but it was not a real world evaluation of a physical model, mostly MATLAB number crunching with provided data. It was meant as an exercise in Multidisciplinary System Architecture Analysis.
I am glad you pointed that out.

Quote:
But now Smaling is in business apparently. Even so, the predicted model required reforming of 20-30 percent of the fuel with hydrogen and carbon monoxide and offered 20-30% MPG improvements AFTER replacing your engine with a smaller engine and installing a turbocharger, LOL.

The folks that phantomcow2 is messing around with are claiming 100 mpg SUVs with their stuff. Work with me here, we don't want to encourage charlatains with more misinformation and money? I don't want people getting burned out from saving gas because of rip-offs.
But phantomcow2 already blew them off and his making his own system, so he isn't shelling out the $$$.

Quote:
This is something that should be reproducable, but who has independently reproduced befreetechs (or Smalings) claims with this kit who wasn't in it for the money?
My main argument is that it is being introduced in the trucking industry, where fuel economy is important. I wish there were real truckers here on GasSavers that could comment on this.

I am in full agreement that alot of the hydrogen systems are scams or at least taking advantage of the "kernel of truth" in the system. Your skepticism is great because it keeps the thread honest.

From my POV, even if the system works, the cost *is* too much to be practical.

These folks are near me and did an independent test. Maybe I will contact them :

EPA Approved Dynamometer Test Proves Reduced Emissions and Improved Performance
http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/October%202007.html
Quote:
On July 17, 2007 a late model Dodge pickup truck equipped with a Cummins diesel engine was taken to Olson Ecologic Lab, an EPA approved dynamometer testing facility in California. The vehicle was given a standard emissions dynamometer test with and without a Hydrogen Boost hydrogen generator operating. Notice I did not say with and without the Hydrogen Boost system operating, because the whole system was not used. Only the hydrogen generator was installed and running at 30 amps.

...

Summary:

Use of the hydrogen generator at moderate throttle setting common to city driving on this diesel powered pickup truck gave the following results:

3% reduction in NOX emissions
31.4% reduction in volatile hydrocarbon emissions
19.1% reduction in carbon monoxide emissions
16.2% reduction in heavy hydrocarbon (particulates) emissions
6.5% increase in torque per %carbon dioxide emissions (indication of fuel consumption)
The booster dude reinterprets that data. Can you read this and comment on his reinterpretation?

Thanks,

CarloSW2
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