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Old 06-22-2008, 05:02 PM   #71
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all i can say is do it...or dont,
it saves me gas and if you own a 3000gt/stealth you will not regret it..those have the biggest gains from what ive seen..i dont care if you dont believe it works but dont discourage others from trying for themselves. it is fast easy and you can always go back...
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:00 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.I.D.E. View Post
In closed loop feedback systems the final arbiter of mixture is the O2 sensor, which tells the ECU whether the mixture is too lean or too rich many times a second.

Increasing the fuel temperature will enhance atomization to a point, beyond that point you get boiling fuel in the supply line with vapor lock of the injectors.

The fuel temperature will not change the basic mixture control and the O2 feedback.

The belief that you will achieve some miraculous increase in mileage is actually supported by knowing that Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition can provide a 25% increase in power generated for the same volume of fuel delivered. Many millions of dollars have been spent in pursuit of practical applications for HCCI, including preheating the fuel and air as well as turbulent mixing of that mixture, but the ability to maintain HCCI throughout all the operational parameters of normal engine function has yet to be achieved.

I am sure preheating the fuel is a component of HCCI. I am also sure that wrapping a coil of copper tubing around your radiator hose will not achieve HCCI.

chope;
I deadlifted 6 times my body weight when I was 24 years old (900 pounds), 33 years ago.

I don't see how that has anything to do with the credibility of my statements in this forum.

You talk about a modification which has some validity, but in the same post you freely admit your vehicle needs some serious maintenance or repair.

60,000 hours making a living working on cars, as well as college board scores that were good enough to get me accepted in Virginia Tech with a major in Nuclear Physics, in the fall of 1968.

Does that make me anything special? NOPE.

Scientific proof requires precise measurements of the fuel used.

One way is to make a special tank that you weigh before and after your test, to precisely measure the fuel consumed regardless of the temperature of that fuel.

Assume your fuel temperature has increased by 100 degrees, that means its volume has increased significantly, even though it's mass is the same.

I tried measuring fuel by volume and had certain portions of my testing where I drove 9 miles and had more fuel when I finished than when I started.

This is not possible, so when I measured the temperature of the fuel I realized that the volume had increased while the total mass had decreased. I had to adjust the volume for the difference in mass due to the temperature.

If you want to get mad because we question your results, it only serves to make you less credible.

I was a certified Master Tech in 1978, now I am a tired semi disabled old man, who has two patents pending on designs for vehicle powertrains that I know can make a huge difference in this world and could change the global climate after I am dead and gone.

Believe me or not I understand the frustration of percieved rejection. I have been dealing with this for the last 8 years. I have watched this country bleed 2 trillion dollars of treasure while I know how to fix it.

Good luck with your idea, it is actually a component of my engine design and one of the sources of successful HCCI that is a basic design parameter of my engine concept.

regards
gary

what point is too far when heating the fuel?
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:04 PM   #73
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Hmmm that's a good point about the expansion though, assuming the old rule of thumb is somewhere near true about 1% per degree C and you take it from 20C to 80C you're getting 60% expansion, do this before the FPR, and I suspect that the ECU doesn't have enough latitude in it's fuelling to inject 60% extra volume of fuel to compensate, hence I'd suspect that it would run lean, and throw codes for O2 failure and/or injector pulsewidth.
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:06 PM   #74
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im gonna bet no more than 500 degrees f
just a guess...seems like i remember cold ignition is 530f
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:11 PM   #75
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Maybe if it was round the exhaust it would get that hot, but coolant doesn't go much above 220F (Yes boiling would be 212, but it's typically under an extra 14psi)
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:12 PM   #76
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thats my point...you dont wanna get close to 500
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:35 PM   #77
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Oh right, sorry, thought you meant yours was getting that hot.
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Old 06-22-2008, 07:15 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadWarrior View Post
coolant doesn't go much above 220F (Yes boiling would be 212, but it's typically under an extra 14psi)
...plus, it's not plain water.
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Old 06-22-2008, 07:16 PM   #79
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I tried fuel heat and took it off. While it might have worked as a standalone mod my other mods were already way ahead. Highway mileage went down and city mileage went up. Knock was crazy. The average was the same. After I watched fuel heat fail to improve mileage I came up with reasons why fuel heating is generally ineffective and undesirable.

1. There is 15x the mass of air as there is fuel which means that heating the air will be approximately 15x more effective than heating the fuel. The fuel system has been tested with 140*F air temps and less which is attainable with a WAI/HAI. The higher the temperature of the air fuel the more likely it will knock. Got gauge?

2. The only free and easily obtainable fuel temperature is 200*F from the water. The fuel system has not been tested with 200*F fuel. Proper handling of fuel at such temperatures might require a temperature sensor for the fuel, ECM reprogramming, better injectors, and intake redesign. A properly designed system would vary the fuel temperature according to the engine demands. A heater we make is lucky to do anything good under any condition.

3. Heat accelerates deformation of o-rings. Viton o-rings are used on the manifold end of the injector because they resist heat deformation so well but other o-ring materials do not. At 200*F o-rings not normally in heated areas will deform and leak. At 200*F the chemicals in the gasoline will get more aggressive. Fuel is heated by the intake valve which is cooled by the fuel. All your gains will be lost by leaking and parts replacement. I hope you didn't think that heating the fuel was fire and forget.

Many mods only work because they upset the balance of the system and the system isn't balanced. If the system is badly balanced by the factory then there could be some value in putting in something that is questionable. If something is broken, fix it. That's why it might work for your "f this forum" Stealth but noone else.
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Old 06-22-2008, 07:22 PM   #80
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However, on many engines the fuel rail is nice and cozy against the head, often shielded by intake parts or valve covers, and it soaks near to coolant temperature anyway... but that happens after the FPR and tank return... so I'd say there's probably no risk to the injectors, o-rings etc at that end, because they should be designed to cope with heat soak from the head.
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