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Old 04-10-2007, 11:53 AM   #31
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Apples & Oranges.....to be fair....

To compare the early '90s Metros and Civics to today's small economy cars is apples and oranges, to be fair.

For example, those older cars were spartan, and often had a harsh ride, buzzy engine, and were often low on amenities, to be sure. They were first cars for first time buyers generally, and they were cheap, and cheaply made (even the Civic).

Today enter in my Yaris, and the Honda Fit. They're small, and for non-hybrid cars provide high MPG (relatively speaking), YET, and here's the kicker: they have a bigger car ride, power windows, ABS, power mirrors, CD, A/C, power steering, etc, etc....they're small in size but not small in amenities, nor in ride.

The little cars of today (some of them) are downsized in cubic area abut not in ride, amenities, and quality....this is the difference between some of today's small econo cars and those of the '80s, and '90s.

I routinely get 44+ MPG with mixed driving from my Yaris...I went out hoping to cut a deal on a Honda Fit, but for nearly the same exact amenities, the Yaris was around $2,000+ cheaper, albeit a bit smaller too, but that's fine as this car is meant just to take me to work and back. I got the Yaris nicely equiped for $13,100. With both the Yaris and Fit, the quality of build is excellent, having no rattles, etc, great ride, and decent handling...all this in an entry level cheap car...a departure from what was offered in the 80's & 90's in that market sector.

I think car companies need to make Camry/Corolla/Accord/Civic equiped cars but in down sized bodies like the Yaris/Fit, etc....and if they can do this, basically offer the comforts of a bigger car in a smaller size, I think they'll sell more...but of course all this smacks in the way of car profit ;-)
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:38 PM   #32
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lol my next car (hopefully not for a long time) will NOT have power anything if i can help it. especially the seat. how hard is it to lift a lever and slide back or forward? comon...neither one of my current vhelcles has power anything and i like it that way. and guess what? in the next 20 years neither one will have burnt out motors, all the windows will still roll up and down, doors will still lock and the trunk will still open and the mirrors will still be able to move.(again how often do you really have to adjust mirrors on your car?) pretty soon we will see cars that have electric rearview mirrors so lazy people dont have to reach upwards!

lol now we have self parking cars, if you dont know how to park you shouldnt drive. period.
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Old 04-10-2007, 04:02 PM   #33
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lol my next car (hopefully not for a long time) will NOT have power anything if i can help it. especially the seat. how hard is it to lift a lever and slide back or forward? comon...neither one of my current vhelcles has power anything and i like it that way. and guess what? in the next 20 years neither one will have burnt out motors, all the windows will still roll up and down, doors will still lock and the trunk will still open and the mirrors will still be able to move.(again how often do you really have to adjust mirrors on your car?) pretty soon we will see cars that have electric rearview mirrors so lazy people dont have to reach upwards!

lol now we have self parking cars, if you dont know how to park you shouldnt drive. period.
I almost started crying when I first saw the advertisment for power rear seat folders on a large SUV. Yikes. I hate to be around when that quits.
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Old 04-10-2007, 04:56 PM   #34
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lol my next car (hopefully not for a long time) will NOT have power anything if i can help it. especially the seat. how hard is it to lift a lever and slide back or forward? comon...neither one of my current vhelcles has power anything and i like it that way. and guess what? in the next 20 years neither one will have burnt out motors, all the windows will still roll up and down, doors will still lock and the trunk will still open and the mirrors will still be able to move.(again how often do you really have to adjust mirrors on your car?) pretty soon we will see cars that have electric rearview mirrors so lazy people dont have to reach upwards!

lol now we have self parking cars, if you dont know how to park you shouldnt drive. period.
Me three. I want a car with roll down windows and MANUAL rack and pinion steering that I can buy off the lot. My SW2 came used, so I have already forked out bucko-bucks for one power window fix that I wouldn't have purchased to begin with . It's harder to ask for and get a "simple" car these days.

Irony Department : I heard that the Honda Insight came with power windows, but only because the power window mechanism was lighter than the roll down window mechanism. Will wonders never cease.

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Old 04-10-2007, 06:57 PM   #35
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haha well i dont know of any cars nowadays that dont have power steering. could find a chevette! its got non power steering or brakes. (most anyways) it was an option that wasnt bought too often.

what i find sad was the other day i saw an ad for a ATV with power steering...COMON! the whole purpose of an atv is to go blasting thru woods and cranking hard on the handlebars! not leasurly cruising...
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Old 04-10-2007, 07:20 PM   #36
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What kind of noodle-armed wimp needs power steering on an ATV?!?
Oh you just never know :
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Old 04-11-2007, 05:00 AM   #37
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It has frustrated me that Honda didn't make the R-18 lean burn with better cats. It would have challenged the hybrid. Would it have gotten better mpg over all? I don't think so. Its my understanding the R-18 was suppose to be the next VX engine. Then the hybrid marketing and PR started. So they kept the semi atkins design. Raised the compression. Added the piston oilers and dumbed down the ECU.

Such a shame....

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Old 04-11-2007, 12:15 PM   #38
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I had a conversation about this over lunch. They started off asking me questions about my Prius and eventually the subject of overall efficiency came up. What happens to efficiency when you count the battery and other extra parts that had to be built and shipped? So I told them the truth: the Prius, like other hybrids, is not the be-all and end-all of "green" cars. I cited examples like the CRX and the Metro, which were (and still are) capable of the same efficiency or better. They are as simple as can be and modern technology could cut their smog forming emissions dramatically. But the average buyer doesn't want simple. Personally, I care about big crumple zones and lots of airbags in the event that I tangle with one of the stupid-large SUVs that clog the roads today. (Wasn't as much of an issue when the mileage makers of yore were conceived.) I drive for efficiency so acceleration isn't much of an issue. But how much patience does the average driver have? I'll bet my maximum acceleration rate in the Prius is about average for the average Prius driver. If they got rid of the high-voltage electrics in favor of a little less weight and less power they wouldn't be able to sell these things. They would be "too slow" because we have been deluded into thinking we need speed. Hybrid cars are the compromise to get both speed and efficiency.

I would argue that hybrids aren't killing the normal high-efficiency automobiles. Instead it's the "big and fast" standard that we have developed, and hybrids are the best way for the auto manufacturers to cope right now. If Honda had built a non-hybrid 8th gen Civic with the right manual transmission and that VX-like R18 motor I might not be driving a hybrid at all. Cost vs. benefit would have seen to it along with the fact that they might have kept the fold-down rear seat that the HCH lacks. But how many people would accept the extra 2 seconds to get from 0-60?
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Old 04-25-2007, 11:47 AM   #39
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It has frustrated me that Honda didn't make the R-18 lean burn with better cats. It would have challenged the hybrid. Would it have gotten better mpg over all? I don't think so. Its my understanding the R-18 was suppose to be the next VX engine. Then the hybrid marketing and PR started. So they kept the semi atkins design. Raised the compression. Added the piston oilers and dumbed down the ECU.

Such a shame....

psy
I really regret that they ended the Honda HX coupe. Imagine a current gen Honda HX coupe with 36/44 minimum (old school) MPG. That car would rock!

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Old 04-25-2007, 11:51 AM   #40
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I think honda is trying to do away with lean-burn to keep up with emissions (not that they have issues), but it is a fact that it increases NOx quite a bit.

*shrug*
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