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Old 02-06-2006, 01:22 PM   #181
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Re: H4 O2

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Originally Posted by JanGeo
Yeah they give off hydrogen and oxygen and other than using some water in the process it should not harm the plates too much however you have to overcome the added plate voltage when charging them 2.375 volts per cell and above (14.25volts for 6 cells) is when they really start to produce gas. You have to watch out for the acid fumes and droplets from the bubbles popping. You should be able to put a rubber stopper in each filler hole and pipe it all together and vent it to the engine.
Very interesting idea. Makes me wish that I didn't have a maintainance free battery now. :-(
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:24 PM   #182
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Re: H4 O2

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Yeah they give off hydrogen and oxygen and other than using some water in the process it should not harm the plates too much however you have to overcome the added plate voltage when charging them 2.375 volts per cell and above (14.25volts for 6 cells) is when they really start to produce gas. You have to watch out for the acid fumes and droplets from the bubbles popping. You should be able to put a rubber stopper in each filler hole and pipe it all together and vent it to the engine.

It's been done before with limited success. Depending on the battery caps you might just tap a hole in the center and build a manifold of sorts with vac hose and T's. BE VERY carefull not to pull battery acid into the engine. Instead of building a housing around the current battery, you'd probably be better off using a discarded battery case to build a purpose built electorylzer. Maybe try a 7 cells in series, maybe 3mm spacing. More than one can be used in parallel, and can also switch on/off different cells depending on load. Tricky part with electrolytic cells is you can easily draw more power to produce the hydroxy than the benifit you get from it. The key is being able to cut back on the gasoline going it. You can go quite a ways with the lean burn limit extended using the hydroxy. Problem is the factory computer limits you. Might have an easier time if you just feed the hydrogen to the engine and dump the oxygen.

Might want to check out the Neltron Turbo Battery. Actually built for that purpose, though we tested it and didn't get much in the way of results. http://www.automorrow.com/articles/theneltronway.html
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:31 PM   #183
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Quote:BE VERY carefull not

Quote:
BE VERY carefull not to pull battery acid into the engine.
One way around that might be to build a bubbler and put it in line before the fumes go into the engine.
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:16 PM   #184
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Re: Quote:BE VERY carefull not

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Quote:
BE VERY carefull not to pull battery acid into the engine.
One way around that might be to build a bubbler and put it in line before the fumes go into the engine.
I run bubblers with any hydrogen generator at least if you run to manifold vac. You are at risk in case of backfire if you don't. Diesel fuel works well in bubblers as suggested in Wisemans' Hyzor Manual.
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:32 PM   #185
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MC battery

If you got a motorcycle battery it has a vent hose already setup to come out the side and usually comes with a hose and would be smaller. But again I don't recommend a battery because you will be dropping a lot of voltage to charge it and that means energy going to waste as heat. Actually I have a fuel cell that puts out some hydrogen and oxygen on separate hoses and really puts out a lot at about 3 amps and a few volts. If you could get a few of them you could really crank out some gas and very little heat and it runs on distilled water with no acid at all. It may have a limited life however.
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Old 02-19-2006, 04:15 PM   #186
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Hello everyone,

Hello everyone,

Just been reading your thread. I'll first point out that I don't have a car. Not interested. Alternative energy is my thing.

I too am looking at hydrogen for running things like generators.

I'd like to point out a few things to you.

1) Hydrogen embrittlement - I hope you are using engines you don't mind losing. Professionals investigating H2 as a combustion fuel know that hydrogen gas has a very small molecule that can work its way through metals and make them brittle. Bang goes your engine!

2) For the chemical approach to H2 generation (my preferred method as I have lots of aluminium foil) make sure you scrub the gas in a bubbler. If the NaOH eats aluminium foil then it's going to eat your engine too.

3) The by-product of H2 combustion is water. Rust is going to be your enemy. You may well be saying goodbye to your exhaust pipe whilst travelling down the road.

4) Salts such as NaOH and KOH are caustic in a hydrated state. They permit water to eat metals. They also eat humans. Always wear gloves and eye protection.

5) These salts are catalysts in these reactions so when the reaction is over, there is just as much catalyst left as there was at the start of the reaction. They take no part in the reaction other than to allow H2 to split from O so these salts are caustic at all times.

Enjoy yourselves!
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Old 02-19-2006, 05:29 PM   #187
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H2

Water is present in gasoline combustion as well and also combines with Nitrogen to form nitric acid and any sulfur in the fuel making sulfuric acid way more corrosive than just water.

I believe the aluminum breaks down and combines with the Salts so some is consumed but yes bases are very dangerous as are acids.

Embrittlement will happen very slowly at the concentrations that we would be using hydrogen - more of a problem with pure hydrogen.

Your use of aluminum is interesting in that it took a great deal of energy to manufacture it and would be better to recycle it than consume it in producing H2. Just a green point. Look into the HyOx group about the best way to convert H2 into energy.
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Old 02-20-2006, 01:15 AM   #188
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Yes, water is created in

Yes, water is created in normal ICE usage but H2 usage creates more because H2 only creates water after combustion whereas petrol creates other products too, like NOX as you suggested.

The aluminium doesn't react with the salt as the salt is just a catalyst. The Al reacts with all the spare O created by splitting the H2 from the O in water. After the reaction is complete, the same amount of catalyst remains. The aluminium will have bonded with all the oxygen it needed in the water. Essentially it is returning back to aluminium oxide (Al2O3) which is the final step to producing aluminium in the electrolytic process.

Al2O3 is made into aluminium using lots of electricity, which can be generated using renewable means such as solar cells but only at a larger more economical scale. As my aluminium source (it's the aluminium lining in juice cartons) would only end up in a landfill site then the aluminium is giving more value for money before being lost forever. My Green awareness and knowledge of Peak Oil mean that cars play a very small part in my life, which is spent in the middle of the countryside.

Here are some links to spur you on:

A video of an ICE running on pure H2 - http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/...erenginehq.ram

A company working on H2 combustion that admits to embrittlement problems - http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/h2products.htm

Another company using H2 (and a variety of other flex fuels) - http://www.knowledgepublications.com/
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Old 02-20-2006, 06:29 AM   #189
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Al

I guess my chemistry is a little rusty LOL

I also read that they came up with a way to break down the Aluminum Oxide back into aluminum and to release the oxygen back into the air with a solar furnace that operaters very efficently - maybe it was zinc and not aluminum but same net result. Not too crazy of having aluminum in my juice containers.

Nice that you can get around without a car - around here they forgot to put in side walks and there are ditches next to the roads to fall into. Be easier to travel by boat or kayak.

The interesting thing about H2 engines is if the guys in the OxyHydrogen group ever figure out the stocametric engine design, the size of the engine is very small due to the higher compression possible and the higher power density of the engine with Pure H2 combustion when burned with the proper amount of O2. The output is pure water by the way and no Nox if you run pure H2 and O2 into the engine. Actually if the pistons can be made smaller maybe steel could be used instead of Aluminum and allow it to handle the increase power output. This would also allow for more closely matched thermal expansion fo the cylinder and piston.
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Old 03-04-2006, 04:32 PM   #190
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Electrolisys

I have been doing this off and on for the past year or so. I used a PVC Y pipe to house my electrodes. Placing then a close as I can to eachother allowing the bubles to go up their respective tubes. For electrodes I used carbon rods. I found then in an old 6V battery for about $3. Take care pulling it apart.
Current is what makes the hydrogen but without the voltage the current can't flow. Decresing the resistance of the electrolite is the key to getting more hydrogen with less power. Baking soda is what I have found to be the best thing to add to the solution. I agree with the heating the electrolite. During the winter I have been getting less hydrogen due to cold water.
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