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Old 06-23-2007, 08:41 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by rh77 View Post
Well, if you have to sell it under book value...

I'm here to help

At any rate, I hear ya. The new Civics aren't what they used to be (I miss my '97 DX)...

But today was also a steamer (at least up here). IATs were pretty high and power just wasn't there -- had to give-in to quite a bit of speed loss on hills. At least your 1.8 pollutes less.

Regarding the Ford Fusion -- I just rented one and drove about 400+ miles. You may want to reconsider. The first rental was brand new (about 2 months ago) -- drove great, good FE. The accelerated aging of rentals shows quite a bit of wear at 17K miles. Last weekend, on the second rental, the front suspension seemed to age BADLY...if you hit a pothole, it felt like the whole engine and transaxle bounced on underinflated basketballs. Definitely don't go for the automatic -- ratios WAY off and the gear selector had D and L for 5 forward gears -- what happened to choice???

Not to mention the electrical gremlins -- unlocking the doors randomly (nobody was close to the switch during the malfunction) and the turn signals started blinking randomly during one point of the trip. Not a good sign of predicted reliability.

Honda has a good product -- it might not be great for the hypermiler, but for the masses, it helps with overall consumption and emissions. Whatever's made for the American market today isn't going to cut it for FE out of the box.

If it's any consolation, your GasLog shows an awesome effort. Get back on that horse tomorrow...

RH77
Just got back from the local Ford dealer. They don't have a I4, 5MT Fusion. And there doesn't seem to be one in the state. They there for felt they couldn't even quote me. I found this very strange with Fords huge push right now on Fusion. All they wanted to talk about was the basic rebate crap. That wont cut it for me... Im a near invoice or under invoice type purchaser. Fusion would be a under invoice type deal. And they know Accord can be had right now way under invoice. I didn't mention that the Civic was up for trade. Approached them as a outright purchase. Ive purchased four new cars from them over the years and only traded one in. Im sure they knew something was up but didn't push it. They know we have the Accord, Civic and Rangealturd. And I honestly think there still mad at me for not buying the Rangealturd from them. One of the few drawbacks of small town life.

As for gremlins. The Civic has them. Its funny you bring up the Fusion auto locking the doors. My Civic has started doing that. I can be washing the car, waxing it,,, changing the oil or just setting on the front porch and you will hear it lock the doors. The keys can be in the ignition, on the hook in the house or setting on a table on the porch. And then out of the blue you will hear it lock them.

OOO well
psy
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Old 06-23-2007, 09:55 AM   #12
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It's not about lean burn, it's about gearing. My V6 auto Camry is the same way compared to the I4s because of the gearing. Manufacturers these days design cars so there really isn't much variance between them. They'll have shorter ratios on a I4 so it accelerates better, and taller ratios on a V6 so it gets better mileage. In your case, the MT Civic has a 5th*R&P=2.92 with a 1668cc engine and 195/60R15 wheels, while the AT five speed 05 Accord has a 5th*R&P=2.51 with a 2354cc engine and 205/60R16 wheels. So, for all intents and purposes, even though the Accord's engine is ~1.41 times larger than the Civic's, The Civic's engine is rotating 1.23 times faster, meaning that Civic only has a displacement advantage of ~1.14 cruising on the highway, which evidently only results in a ~10% (or less) difference in mileage. Out of all the Accord models, the 5sp AT would probably be the best highway cruiser, since it has the tallest gear ratio in OD.

Gear ratios and such do play a major roll. But the Accord and Civic basically cant be compared. In the above manor. Sure there are elements that are true.

The Accords ivtec is a diff. animal then that of the Civics. The Accord's IMO is better. And there is the 5th gear/lockup in the AT. It will hit vtec and roar to life. And not complain a bit about the tach sailing up. It has the ability to go from normal to high output and adjust cam timing. Couple that with the lock ability of the tranny and you have something. But playing with the lockup and low rpms has its disablitys. Ours locks up between 45mph and 47mph. One can then drift it back down to right at 42mph and keep it locked up. MPG can get stupid high at this point. But let it drop any lower and mpg goes to the gutter. At that point you have the ECU, TCU and ivtec at there lower limits. And it appear they go into default mode. And the engine isn't laboring at all. Do this in a MT, I4 Accord and you can hold on to the great mpg. The lower gear helps alot.

The Civic's R-18 on the other hand was originally designed to be the next VX. Its my understanding the lean burn code is in the ECU. Its just turned off. Thus to date it doesn't look like Hondadata will ever make or mod a R-18 ECU. Nothing more is needed other than the code to be allowed to run and the Cats in place. And its my opinion the cats are there. Just look at the heads single exhaust port dumping into Cats right off the head. It goes into a 1.5L fuel air ratio combustion pattern when in low load between 1500rpm and 3500rpm. The 1.5L is valve control trickery. Couple that with the two stage intake manifold with long or short paths. There on to something. Then throw in a 10.5:1 compression ratio with piston oilers on regular unleaded. There is alot of crap going on under the hood. A over all higher gear helps this engine stay in its low load config. And its a major reason why the AT's dont get the mpg the MT's get. The lower torque of the R-18 really hurts its self in this area with a AT.

This has been tested. A buddy of mine owns a 06 silver Civic Coupe.
We used a section of road we both have driven a lot. Used the SG with the same setting in both cars. Mine a MT his a AT. We used 57 mph as our cruising test point. At 57 mph mines turning 2500 rpm. His at 57 mph turns 2000 rpm. As seen on the dash tach and the SG. At this point my instant mpg is 60 to 62 mpg. His 57 to 59 mpg. Humm his is wanting to act like the Accord. So we then bring his tach up to 2500 rpm. Yep speed comes up. But mpg goes down because we have now entered into aero load. The SG is very clear on this. Both cars had 44 psi in the tires. Now was the a TEST!!! As some would like to think. "NO" But it did explain alot to us as to why his car barely gets over epa. Hes not a hard driver. Truth be known. Hes a mild hypermiler. I just reframe from telling him that. Thus it became clear to us that the taller gear could be hurting him. He has since moved to Germany and took his Civic with him. He is home right now. Hes a bomb maker for the US goverment. ( cool job ) And has told me hes glad we did a bit of testing. But is still is hard to get much over epa mpg in it. This is a common complaint of AT owners.

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Old 06-23-2007, 10:16 AM   #13
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The Civic's R-18 on the other hand was originally designed to be the next VX. Its my understanding the lean burn code is in the ECU. Its just turned off. Thus to date it doesn't look like Hondadata will ever make or mod a R-18 ECU. Nothing more is needed other than the code to be allowed to run and the Cats in place.
psy
psy , if in fact the VX code is there (most important the actual code in a 'known' ) it should be able to be unlocked and usable shouldn't it ? Someone with a laptop and software would be able to get this done or better yet a dyno tune for FE ? - whether or not at this stage in your ownership ,it's worth it to you ? It will take finding out which software can read the Honda ECU - since I've been a Ford-a-phile for some time now ,I'm not in tune with other manufaturer's tuning . I may be very off-base . I also believe it could mess up any future warranty issues . I'd also recommend researching a bit more before choosing a Fusion ...but that's me ...
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Old 06-23-2007, 11:13 AM   #14
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Dang calm down man. Honda makes some of the best cars on the planet, IMHO, and you are getting lots more mpg over the EPA rating, so what are you crying for? If you want Prius mileage, buy a Prius. And get used to the fact that mileage will vary from tank to tank. I have been as low as 46 and as high as 50mpg in my little hatchback. It's not the end of the world.
I wont calm down.

Hondas aren't as good as they use to be. So let me run down the warranty issues of my two Hondas.

05 Accord.
Center consoul lid and trays replaced.
Dash came loose from firewall. Fixed
Engine Hood bows up in the sun making for hood to fender seams big enough to stick your fingers in. Honda will replace the hood,, but not the vin/serial number tag on the hood. Its not been fixed.
Top panel on center stack of dash. You can see the plastic molded injection support pattern. Has a waffle look. Honda wont replace.
Passenger air bag cover in the dash has sagged to the point you could feed a cat milk out of it. Honda wont replace.
All four door panels flex out when a window in rolled up and seated. I refer to it as breathing door panels. Honda wouldn't fix this. I guess its ok for there cars to flex like GM junk. So I welded strap metal to the inner door panels. Door panels dont move now when the window seats. Turns out this was the first step in Hondas so called ACE body design elements and cheaper construction. Covered up under the shield of better pedestrian safety. The Civics loaded up with this BS.

06 Civic.
Sagged right rear spring. Fixed
Right rear tire worn on the inner edge. Alignment issue. Cant be fixed by Honda. Theres not a problem. I fixed it. Of note Coupes have this problem in spades. Canada plant really blew it at one point. Honda,,, theres not a problem. Honda replaced both rear tires.
Trunk liners on each side replaced.
Power steering pump replaced. The leak turned out to be more than a fitting.
Cowling between engine hood, wipers and windshield came loose. Replaced twice. Broke a third time. I fixed it.
Dash insert around top pod/speed-o popped up. Fixed by a dealer. Done so bad I made them replace it again and the top panel of the dash. They left tool marks all over the dash top panel. Idiots! Then a Honda regional guy swore up and down my 8th gen was a modded 7th gen. I about kicked his worthless college boy *** when he bent over to check the door tag. My service adviser jumped in front of me. knowing I wouldn't kick a lady.... grrrrr. I was going to kick his stupid butt into next week.
ECU has been replaced.
I replaced both rear wheel bearing. The right one failed. I just couldnt stand the thought of another dealer warranty issue. I ordered them from Majestic and installed. Yes I replaced both. Wheel bearing are like light bulbs. One fails in a two light fixture. Replace both.

So don't tell ME about Honda quality!!! Ive had more issues with these two cars than the sum total of the last five new cars Ive purchased. For a bit of contrast. My mother owns a CRX Si. It only had one warranty issue. My father owns a 4th gen Accord EX, I4, AT. It never had a warranty issue. Park either of our cars beside them and its like night and day. Honda quality use to be a bench mark. Its clear. Hondas idea of quality and consumers idea of quality have been lowered.

Don't tell me about tank or segment diff's. My daily grind hasn't changed more than 8 miles of road in 20 years. 30 miles of my daily grind are unchanged. Diff. being I use to go to downtown Tulsa to TRMC off the IDL. And now I go to east Tulsa off the Crap ( Creek ) Nation Turnpike. I understand the road conditions, traffic,,, weather and wind better than most. When you live in Oklahoma.... you understand wind at a level most cant even begin to think about.

If I wanted a PII or a HCHII I would have gotten one. And Im very clear on the mpg diff. concerns between the cars and mine.

I was also taught by my father the tactics of FE driving as a child. Yes Ive been driving since the age of six years old. My father thought it to be imperative that his children by god knew how to drive. We where schooled in the art of FE driving, high speed driving, emergency maneuvers. Driving in weather conditions of all types. To this day its a continuing education. Hes in his early 70's and still one of the best drivers Ive ever seen. A smoothness thats mind binding. And a ability to make a car,,,any car a extension of his mind, feet, hands and butt. I to this day marvel at his ability to take his Accord out and just smoke the crap out of folks at a auto-x. Or yank 50 mpg out of it at will.

maybe this post will give you some insight into my drive to do what I do to the best of my ability when I choose to do it. And understand why Im so very critical of my cars and how they put out.....

psy
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Old 06-23-2007, 12:09 PM   #15
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psy , if in fact the VX code is there (most important the actual code in a 'known' ) it should be able to be unlocked and usable shouldn't it ? Someone with a laptop and software would be able to get this done or better yet a dyno tune for FE ? - whether or not at this stage in your ownership ,it's worth it to you ? It will take finding out which software can read the Honda ECU - since I've been a Ford-a-phile for some time now ,I'm not in tune with other manufaturer's tuning . I may be very off-base . I also believe it could mess up any future warranty issues . I'd also recommend researching a bit more before choosing a Fusion ...but that's me ...
Thats the crux of the matter.

Hondadata is one of the leaders in Honda ECU retune's. You can send them your ECU and have it redone to there known specs. Or spec hardware and known dyno work and they return your ECU to you modded. The Accord's ECU responds to this very well. As does most older Civics, Accords, TSX, Teg's, TL's, S2000's,, on and on. Or you can buy there tuning stuff and go nuts with it. And many others out there. But when it comes to VX and R-18 ECU management. The doors industry wide slam shut.

So one thinks. Hey the R-18 has a 10.5:1 compression ratio. Heck thats super unleaded compression. WOW lets let this engine run right. Put 91 or 93 in it during the winter and it comes alive. Its like a diff. engine. With a SG you can see it advance the timing. It comes alive! Mpg holds for the given temps. Its a win, win. Then sumer comes and the bottom falls out. The car gets sluggish. MPG suffers. "Damn" wtf is going on? I feel rh77 and I know that current late model Hondas truly don't like high IAT temps. Sure a warm AIT helps in the winter as long as you don't push them above 105f and no more,,, period above 115f. Get up into the 120f to 130f areas and they get sluggish. And from a drivers stand point near useless.

I could go on here with coolant temps and my recent on going summer grill blocks and the resulting ITA temps. Its looking like engine coolant temps can be managed. But one needs to also manage the intake air temps. Hondas are very fussy *****es. They seem to want there nails and boobs done just right! So its looking like a CAI is needed for summer driving for max FE and or grill blocks. Damn what a pain in the arse. And heat soak of the intake system needs to be managed. What PITA! So we know there best ITA temps need to be 60f to 105f or there about.

Bottom line is,,, we know some of these parameters can be pushed to extremes in other cars. Hondas as a whole are picky. VX and R-18 don't respond the same as other cars. IE >>>> the ECU's that are truly black boxen in the automotive world. We know one can do bolt on mods to a VX mill and get some more power from it. Hell you can turbo it and get sick on it and it will respond to the point that the open top deck block and ECU become a real problem. Same with the R-18. The open top block can be delt with. Its called topping the block. Then Hondas are ready for insane HP gains. But theres not a cure for modding the stock ECU's. There special. Not easy to read or mod.

If I thought I could mod or cut loose lean burn in my R-18 it would be done. But as of yet ,,, the best in the world wont touch it. Kinda like VX. Dont you think?

psy
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Old 06-23-2007, 12:25 PM   #16
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I wont calm down.

Hondas aren't as good as they use to be. So let me run down the warranty issues of my two Hondas.
It's CLEARLY time for you to own a Ford.
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Old 06-23-2007, 12:39 PM   #17
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It's CLEARLY time for you to own a Ford.
And if they had a Focus with a knock off PI or PII hybrid system in it on the lot today. I probably would own one today. They did have a FEH. But I have no use for a over priced SUV.

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Old 06-23-2007, 12:39 PM   #18
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I see(read that know) you've put a lot of thought into this - that where you're frustration starts ! Just wondering if Hondata is possibly slamming that door shut because they don't believe there is enough interest in unlocking the FE potential or if they know it will create a whole nuther set of problems ? Quite possible that the VX coding could make those IAT extremes much worse that they are already ? Maybe a a group of 8th gen owners could set up a group tune/field test through Hondata? I'm just throwing my .02 out - I'm positive you've already brain stormed this simple thought out too . There has to be a way to tune this correctly and inexpensively . That requires time and patience ...which wears thin too quickly .
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:19 PM   #19
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I see(read that know) you've put a lot of thought into this - that where you're frustration starts ! Just wondering if Hondata is possibly slamming that door shut because they don't believe there is enough interest in unlocking the FE potential or if they know it will create a whole nuther set of problems ? Quite possible that the VX coding could make those IAT extremes much worse that they are already ? Maybe a a group of 8th gen owners could set up a group tune/field test through Hondata? I'm just throwing my .02 out - I'm positive you've already brain stormed this simple thought out too . There has to be a way to tune this correctly and inexpensively . That requires time and patience ...which wears thin too quickly .
No,,,, I think and Ive chatted with folks that have worked with Hondas lean burn alga/programing. Its a complex witch to sort out. I think in the R-18 its as simple as throwing a digital switch. BUT I dont think anybody knows the syntax of that switch. And one wrong key stroke and you have ruined the ecu. Honda is crafty with this stuff. I wish it was as simple as slaving in a wide band and finding the switch. But nobodys been able to do that yet because a wideband slave can only interpret what its fed and mod that data. If the input isnt seen as active you have nothing to put out/mod.

When my ECU failed and went into default mode. And didnt throw a cel. I purchased a back up ECU. $900 bucks! Honda replaced the oem one. But my gut told me. Buy a back up. Ive let some of who I think are the very best code readers and hackers look at it. There are things in there they cant explain,,, at all. So it sets in its static bag and I dont trust its root code. One thing I do know is it has the updated Honda flash. But the flash only pertains to Si, and R-18, At's,,, Yes Si and R-18 use the same basic code. Just there parms. in the fuel rails and stuff are diff. also the prams for say vtec collect signal info from other control devices to know which set of data points it should run. Its a smart hunk of code. The flash fixes the rpm hang in Si and part of whats known as lug bug in the R-18 AT. And a dead spot off idle in the R-18 AT. The rest of lug bug is fixed by a change in the routing of the serpentine belt. The result of the belt change and its idler is a shift in low order harmonics that set up. All because that stupid 5AT locks up to soon and cause's a harmonic and does not give over all better mpg. Even tho the tach and epa says it should.

Tricky stuff going on in a R-18 and I think Honda blew it by trying to make a EP3 out of a lean burn. Well that and its pork....

psy
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Old 06-23-2007, 05:48 PM   #20
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Just thinking about the summer time IAT and *having* to switch to a cai to lower those temps into a usable range . Does the R-18 have a coolant heated intake manifold / throttle body ? If it does - possibly fabbing a valved coolant bypass may help- off for summer,on for winter . I know it worked to keep air inlet temps down on my SHO's 3.4l V8 . Again just throwing an idea out there .
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