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Old 04-20-2007, 11:42 AM   #21
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Yeah my Scion xB is considered a wagon by the DMV but it really is a van? well I guess a van is setup without rear seats? SUV's are usually higher up off the ground NO? Suburban Utility Vehicle = SUV
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Old 04-20-2007, 11:59 AM   #22
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Yeah my Scion xB is considered a wagon by the DMV but it really is a van?
Are 15 passenger vans considered a wagon or van?

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Originally Posted by JanGeo View Post
SUV's are usually higher up off the ground NO? Suburban Utility Vehicle = SUV
True, but the shape is the same. It is a station wagon on a truck platform. That is my story and I am sticking to it.....

The AMC Eagle was higher off the ground, too. That was before the SUV label thought. AMC was always a bit ahead of its time, too bad it could not survive.

Would the Dodge Magnum have flopped if it was called a station wagon?
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Old 04-20-2007, 12:08 PM   #23
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I believe GM stopped making the S-10 in 2003, and Replaced it with the larger colorado.
Thanks, I could not remember the name of it at the time of my ranting......
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Old 04-20-2007, 01:02 PM   #24
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W****

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Are 15 passenger vans considered a wagon or van?
Depends on who is defining it. If it has a flat load-floor, it usually is classified by the EPA as a "Truck" and is exempt from "Car" CAFE standards. That's how the PT cruiser ended up tricking the system with a loophole. The PT convertible is not, however. Also depends on the GVWR.

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The AMC Eagle was higher off the ground, too. That was before the SUV label thought. AMC was always a bit ahead of its time, too bad it could not survive.
AMC took too many risks, too early. Otherwise, maybe we'd have a "Big-4" today. Although they started figuring things out with FE in their smaller cars (Gremlin, Pacer). Their Jeep brand had to have helped. Too bad the company got eaten-up by Chrysler instead.


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Would the Dodge Magnum have flopped if it was called a station wagon?
You still can't use the word "Wagon" in marketing these days. A stigma is still associated. IMO, just looking at the Magnum says "flop" -- it doesn't need any help.

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Old 04-20-2007, 03:12 PM   #25
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BeeUU -

Yes and no.

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I stand firm when I make this statement:

All SUVs are STATION WAGONS!!! It is the same two box shape that is shared with the mini-van and cars formally referred to as "station wagons" that are so out of style.
Among the general public, an SUV is perceived as "cool", a station wagon, except maybe for the surfboard woodies, is not.

An SUV has always been associated with elevated ride height and all the center of gravity problems associated with it. The station wagon doesn't have these problems.

The original definition of an SUV is that it is built on a truck frame. A station wagon is not.

The SUV has a psychological association with toughness and/or aggression. The station wagon does not.

An SUV get's good old fashioned Detroit dinosaur style MPG while the station wagon can get close to the sedan-like MPG of whatever passenger car it is based on.

(George Carlin could have delivered these distinctions in a much more entertaining manner, ala baseball vs football)

Quote:
What really is hilarious is an Tahoe/Suburban/Expedition that is lowered. Is that not a station wagon, albeit a big/heavy one, but please.

The station wagon is not out of style, it is now called a "life activity vehicle" or "cross-over".

I love my mini-van, they are too dang useful.
On the yes side, since the SUV has "Utility" in the middle of it's name, I would say that it does have "station wagon" like space. Also the SUV shares the two box shape with the station wagon.

One thing I have been thinking for the last 10 years is that it would have been soooo easy for any car company to copy the aesthetic of the SUV without actually have to make one. I think the Pontiac Vibe was the first to do this, and the Dodge Caliber is probably it's best representation (if you like that aesthetic).

Here may be bad news for you (but it supports your argument) :

The Death of the Minivan?!? - October 2, 2006
http://www.allpar.com/weblogs/2006/1...f-the-minivan/
Quote:
In the future 2006 will be remembered as the beginning of the end of the minivan?!?

Ford Motor Company was the first to blink. In 2006 they were the first to announce that they would be killing off their Mercury Monterey. They have yet to announce the death of the Ford Freestar but it has been rumored that the last will be rolling off the line come next spring. ... Instead of minivans, Ford is hoping that people will like their new full-size Fairlane crossover. This vehicle will finally make its debut in 2008. Lincoln is also rumored to get is own version of the Fairlane. A Lincoln minivan? Well, if it wasn’t for the Benz R-class I would have thought that this would have been a crazy idea. ...
Here is a nice article comparing the psychology of what people buy :

Was Freud a Minivan or S.U.V. Kind of Guy? - July 17, 2000
http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/~wiley/...10/VanSUV.html
Quote:
Of all the mysteries facing automakers in recent years, few have been so engrossing as how families choose between minivans and sport utility vehicles.

To look at them by median income, age, occupation, family size or where they live, people who buy minivans and people who buy sport utilities look fairly similar, the automakers’ research has found. The typical minivan or sport utility purchaser is most often a fairly affluent married couple in their 40’s with children. And while minivans are sometimes labeled "mom-mobiles," the principal drivers of minivans, like sport utility vehicles, are actually a little more likely to be men than women. ... Sport utility buyers are much more concerned with their vehicles’ external appearance, while minivan buyers are more interested in the vehicles’ interiors and practicality, said Thomas Elliott, Honda’s executive vice president for North American auto operations. "The people who buy S.U.V.’s are in many cases buying the outside first and then the inside," he said. "They are buying the image of the S.U.V. first, and then the functionality. ...
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Old 04-20-2007, 03:21 PM   #26
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People make lots of car/truck/suv choices, and for many reasons. I chose a 4x4 pickup because I hunt and fish. It's laughable to think of taking a Suzuki Swift or Toyota Prius up a logging road with a 16 foot canoe on the roof or during a November snowstorm. They wouldn't make it 1/2 mile on some of the roads I travel.

And I'm going to need a bigger truck soon, now that I have 3 grandchildren, with another in the oven.

I'm just as pissed as anyone at the car companies. It would be a technical "no brainer" to make a 4 cylinder crew cab diesel (or hybrid) compact pickup truck that would get 30/30 mpg, and I'd be first in line to buy one. I'd pay extra for it.

Don't dis people because they have few efficient choices from automakers.
Well, you're one of the minority that actualy gets usage from your 4x4....most don't...if you can often utilize your 4x4 guzzler, all the power to ya
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Old 04-20-2007, 03:33 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Erdrick View Post
To all: Yeah, being in construction almost demands that you have a pickup. Not at all out of necessity, but more because you will get teased if you don't. Thing is, the guys doing the teasing just drive their trucks because of their small self-esteem or small dicks. Probably a little bit of both.

kickflipjr: I hope I am wrong, but to me that reads like "hello, I am the failed project who will never see the light of day." Or something to that effect... like I said though, I hope I am wrong. In the mean time, I will put my faith in Nissan to deliver.

Americans are brainwashed consumers who are in a continual rat race until the day they die. I am glad that I realized this before buying some of the stupid things that I wanted when I was younger.

On a side note, has anyone calculated the costs of ownership of a car? I have been thinking about getting a new Yaris (still hate the name, Vitz is WAY better), but even this works out to about $8/day if I were to keep it for 10 years. That is of course assuming no residual value. So it should probably be closer to $6.50-$7.00/day...
Get the Yaris!!! I got mine with most of the features, power mirrors, windows, CD, AC, A/T, etc, etc the liftback for $13,100! Great Value, and the MPG is BETTER then EPA numbers...I routinely get 44.5 with mixed driving....
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Old 04-20-2007, 05:11 PM   #28
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BeeUU -

Yes and no.



Among the general public, an SUV is perceived as "cool", a station wagon, except maybe for the surfboard woodies, is not.

An SUV has always been associated with elevated ride height and all the center of gravity problems associated with it. The station wagon doesn't have these problems.

The original definition of an SUV is that it is built on a truck frame. A station wagon is not.

The SUV has a psychological association with toughness and/or aggression. The station wagon does not.

An SUV get's good old fashioned Detroit dinosaur style MPG while the station wagon can get close to the sedan-like MPG of whatever passenger car it is based on.

(George Carlin could have delivered these distinctions in a much more entertaining manner, ala baseball vs football)



On the yes side, since the SUV has "Utility" in the middle of it's name, I would say that it does have "station wagon" like space. Also the SUV shares the two box shape with the station wagon.

One thing I have been thinking for the last 10 years is that it would have been soooo easy for any car company to copy the aesthetic of the SUV without actually have to make one. I think the Pontiac Vibe was the first to do this, and the Dodge Caliber is probably it's best representation (if you like that aesthetic).

Here may be bad news for you (but it supports your argument) :

The Death of the Minivan?!? - October 2, 2006
http://www.allpar.com/weblogs/2006/1...f-the-minivan/


Here is a nice article comparing the psychology of what people buy :

Was Freud a Minivan or S.U.V. Kind of Guy? - July 17, 2000
http://social.chass.ncsu.edu/~wiley/...10/VanSUV.html


CarloSW2
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Yea I agree with your points. It is funny how the two are so close, but put a little distance under the body and the perception changes, regardless of the driveline. Hence the new "crossovers"

But it is fun to watch peoples reaction when I call their SUV a station wagon and give them my rant.

It is too bad about the mini-van, they are useful and get decent mileage. I have a Mazda MPV which I bought for the looks, handling and the mileage. We had a tank that was 28mpg. Not great in this company, but not too bad considering. Mazda has replaced the MPV with the "9" crossover.
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Old 04-21-2007, 12:24 AM   #29
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The magnum IS the car from Family Guy. It is a total penis. No come to think of it, that honor actually goes to the Chrysler Crossfire (was that what it was called). Again, that was a game that everyone was getting caught up and loving back in the 80s.
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Old 04-23-2007, 09:21 PM   #30
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Kids and seats...

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Some time ago Saturn ran a TV commercial where some breeders had just bought a Saturn coupe but when the stork visited they took it back and got the SUV instead. Dodge had a similar campaign targeting breeders for their minivans but I put the details of that one out of my memory.

The thing I'm wondering is, are kids that much bigger than they used to be? Fatter, yes, but still... this big galoot was always in the back seats of old Beetles, Squarebacks, Vegas, Rabbits, and etc. 'til I flew the coop. Do babies demand 4x4 and tons of hauling capacity?
Kids may be a bit bigger, but until they are over 5 years old, you are stuck putting them in an approved car seat...and those take quite a bit more room than the child would occupy otherwise. We have one child and another on the way, and it amazes me how much "stuff" tends to go with the child. :-) Also, I dare you to take a normal child seat and fit it in some of the smaller backsets and buckle them legally and safely! You might be lucky to get 2 in a 5 seater car and still get 2 adults up front!

On the minivan/SUV/Wagon bit...I have been calling these little sissy SUVs a minivan for quite a long time. Until recently, I had my old full size Bronco and it is difficult to even compare the U in the SUV to that old monster. Heck, most don't even have a full frame...how much U can you really get with that??

We have a Taurus Station Wagon, and the car handles wonderfully, will swallow an 8' 2x4 and gets better mileage than a minivan or SUV. Also, lets not forget the safety! It would be nice if the rear hatch was more square, but that is my only complaint.

When we need to haul larger/heavier items, we just rent a truck from Home Depot or Lowes for $20 for 90 minutes...don't even have to put gas in it. :-)

Sometimes I miss the ol' Bronco, but not when I am at the gas station!!

--Randall
Concord, NC

(daily driver: 1991 Mercedes 190e 2.6 5-speed -- avg. 29 mpg)
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