Lesson one: Critical thinking and BS detection

[ZugyNA]

We're getting into la-la land. Maybe read this again?

http://www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=1299


It's basically all about how you go about testing.

Statistics are useful...but not if applied in the wrong way and at the wrong time.

Been a long time since the stat course...but the basic idea is that you need a large random sample to see meaningful stats.

If you are "testing" atoms and molecules (physics/chemistry?)...then you might be able to assume that all of them act the same.

But with engines and induction systems and so forth...each model is different in character...thus applying statistics to one occurance is a NO-NO....not valid.

The EPAs tests...and some of the other tests you people quote are NOT in any way statistically valid. They are tests on one or two vehicles at most?

[GasSavers_maxc]

The problem with education is that the STATE dictates what and how you learn something. Knowledge is more trueful.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by ZugyNA

It's my personal belief that those trained in academia-land are usually wearing blinders put there by those who tend to finance education...big business.

There are lots of revolving doors between business and education...as there are between business and govt...and so forth.

Once people become obligated in certain ways while climbing the ladder of success...their views become skewed.

Strangley enough...the higher you climb...the narrower your views might be?

Some maintain some independence...some don't.

Are you forgetting the point of my original post? You mention revolving doors in education and business, yet the original article quotes MPG-CAPS salespeople are creditable sources. If this isn't a revolving door I don't know what is.

The intent of this post is not to discuss testing methods on other tests, the variability from engine to engine, or the revolving door between business and education. The intent of this is also not to make sly implications towards a conspiracy concerning the state-funded education systems.

Of course each engine is different. The tests that members of this forum do are meant to be interpretted for their vehicle only, not the entire community at large. There will always be error, problems, or complications with testing. That in no way, however, means that testing should stop. Test results may not be able to be generalized from one brand of car, or even from year to year between the same brand. That doesn't mean that testing should stop.

I spent a large portion of my life looking for conspiracies where there are none. It's futile and a waste of energy. Sure there are crooked people out there. Large coorporations may conveniently supress information and technology. I'm sure it happens all of the time. Regardless of this, I don't see the point in assuming coverups, conspiracies, or in making statements that education is pointless due to the fact that it is supported by the state.

It's pointless and counter-productive.

[ZugyNA]

Looks like thread drift to me....

I guess we agree to disagree.


My basic point is that I am looking for ways to increase mpg. I've found some.

I think it does a dis-service to others to look for (with much satisfaction?)..... ways to disprove that various mods work to improve mpg. Espec when this is done in a non-valid way....i.e....no serious testing.

Some of this kind of "disproving" is probably no more valid than some of the more doubtful claims made by some that are promoting various addons?

I don't look for conspiracies...I see the potential for them....evidence is hard to find.

If I find something that seems to increase mpg on my car...then the mod is valid for me and that car....and might be something someone else would want to try. If I can't get something to work...doesn't mean I applied the mod in the right way...but it MIGHT be an indication that it won't work.

[Matt Timion]

Originally Posted by ZugyNA

Looks like thread drift to me....

I guess we agree to disagree.


My basic point is that I am looking for ways to increase mpg. I've found some.

I think it does a dis-service to others to look for (with much satisfaction?)..... ways to disprove that various mods work to improve mpg. Espec when this is done in a non-valid way....i.e....no serious testing.

Some of this kind of "disproving" is probably no more valid than some of the more doubtful claims made by some that are promoting various addons?

I don't look for conspiracies...I see the potential for them....evidence is hard to find.

If I find something that seems to increase mpg on my car...then the mod is valid for me and that car....and might be something someone else would want to try. If I can't get something to work...doesn't mean I applied the mod in the right way...but it MIGHT be an indication that it won't work.

I absolutely agree with this statment. When this site was started it was intended to test every single addon/product/modification so that people can have a web resource when they want to find out if something worked. Sadly this requires a lot of money to do. I have approached many of the vendors of these products only to discover that while they would be interested in us testing, they would still charge full price for their product. This is less expensive for products like the MPG-CAPs, but more expensive for products like the Tornado.

The other day a friend of mine told me that he used to be a FedEx driver. A friend of his asked him to try using his product, a water injection system, on his FedEx truck. He intended for it to save him money and then for my friend to suggest it to the higher-ups at FedEx. This man wanted to be paid, in full, for my friend to test the product. You would think that the potential money he would make would be worth the small loss of having the product tested for free. Eventually he let my friend test it for free. He saved 4 MPG. For a Carburated FedEx truck, that's a lot. The recommendation was made to the HQ and nothing ever came of it.

Anyway, I'd be more than happy to test a lot of these products, but it just isn't going to happen unless I somehow find a few thousand dollars to buy all of the products out there.