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Old 01-29-2010, 06:00 AM   #61
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WAI and WCI are 2 ways to mitigate the winter mileage penalty.

In a car designed for mileage controlling the intake air temperature as well as the intake coolant temperature will go a long way towards reducing the winter mileage penalty.

I know it works for me. With my Insight and a daily route that is fairly constant its very easy to see the difference between warmer intake air and warmer intake coolant.

Simple modifications. In my case I do not try to get hot air off the manifold. I just pull warm air off the top of the radiator. Blocking 50% of the radiator increases the temperature of the air and coolant coming into the engine.

All you are doing is adjusting those two parameters to compensate for the fact that there is no control of the temp of incoming air and coolant in the factory design, which is a large enough capacity to cover the most extreme in high temperatures. In very cold temperatures a point will always be reached when fuel does not atomize and coolant freezes.

While most would agree that if it was 50 below you would need to do something, it should be realized that at just about any temp below 100 degrees there would be some improvement if you could create the 100 degree scenario for the air and coolant entering your engine.

Mitigating heat energy losses to the atmosphere is beneficial. How much of an improvement will vary greatly from vehicle to vehicle, but look at it this way.

Anyone here loose mileage from increasing the intake air and coolant temps when its below freezing outside?

In some cases as temps get really low, you can keep the engine cool enough with only the heater core, under most low speed scenarios.

My WAI setup does not really cost me power when I accelerate, because the heat available is somewhat limited and when you go to wot, (which I rarely if ever do) then the volume of air overcomes the available heat.

Reversible in less than 2 minutes, makes it easy to do a direct comparison.

regards
Gary
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Old 01-29-2010, 12:19 PM   #62
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I have been following this thread for some time and tried to apply some of the ideas on my 1997 SW2 Saturn. I purchased this car about a year ago and the measured fuel has been 30-32MPG. It uses no oil, Has no drivability issues. It's a 5 speed and currently has 87K. I have added a partial radiator block and a WAI. My intake AT is 50-60 degrees over ambient measures on my SG. Engine temp is 195. Early in the fall I took a 190 mile run I have made prior without the WAI. The run with the WAI measured less than 1MPG saving. My winter mileage currently is 30MPG. Tire pressure is 30/32, Transmission is filled with M1 ATF and engine 5W30. Car is well maintained. I guess my rubber band wasn't wound tight enough?

Steve
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:26 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by tvsteve View Post
I have been following this thread for some time and tried to apply some of the ideas on my 1997 SW2 Saturn. I purchased this car about a year ago and the measured fuel has been 30-32MPG. It uses no oil, Has no drivability issues. It's a 5 speed and currently has 87K. I have added a partial radiator block and a WAI. My intake AT is 50-60 degrees over ambient measures on my SG. Engine temp is 195. Early in the fall I took a 190 mile run I have made prior without the WAI. The run with the WAI measured less than 1MPG saving. My winter mileage currently is 30MPG. Tire pressure is 30/32, Transmission is filled with M1 ATF and engine 5W30. Car is well maintained. I guess my rubber band wasn't wound tight enough?

Steve
Car is well maintained?

Your coils are rusty (OEM, probably, and overdue for replacement), your valve cover gasket looks to be leaking, your plug wires appear to be OEM and at 87k; overdue, your intake tubing connecting to the airbox lid isn't secured in the proper position (the clamp isn't down far enough, could be leaking), your valve cover breather tube has electrical tape on it (probably leaking), your heat shield isn't as tight as mine, and did you block off the old provisioning for the IAT sensor?

Also, why so modest on the tires? I was at 50psi.

You didn't mention your 190 miles trip average speed. Mine was 57mph for a 250 mile trip.

The Saturn S-Series is one vehicle in particular that has been PROVEN to respond to HAI by MANY people...
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:59 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by theholycow View Post
That type of detuning isn't just turning down the maximum horsepower, though. Again, the reduction in power is a byproduct. You turn off this enrichment condition, adjust the ignition timing that way, tweak some other thing some other way, etc, for the purpose of increasing fuel economy; and in doing so, you give up power.
What's the difference? Reduce power gain fuel economy, gain fuel economy reduce power. I really didn't want to be a jackass, especially to the moderator, but here goes... I'm an engineer with an extensive background in motorsports.

What I want to see from someone is real tangible evidence as to what is going on when using a successful WAI. Obviously, some parameters are changed, but without a data logging system such as PI or even MoTec no one really knows what is changing, and furthermore, how it's changing.

That probably won't happen, so I shouldn't hope for it. But, if somehow somebody did find out what parameters change to decrease fuel consumption then that would be a window into further adjustments. If you had a standalone ECU such as MegaSquirt then you can easily adjust these parameters and really get down to tuning for decreased fuel consumption.

I don't have the time or money to do this type of experimenting otherwise I'd do it in a heartbeat. Here's a picture of my personal race car.
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:37 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Project84 View Post
Car is well maintained?

Your coils are rusty (OEM, probably, and overdue for replacement), your valve cover gasket looks to be leaking, your plug wires appear to be OEM and at 87k; overdue, your intake tubing connecting to the airbox lid isn't secured in the proper position (the clamp isn't down far enough, could be leaking), your valve cover breather tube has electrical tape on it (probably leaking), your heat shield isn't as tight as mine, and did you block off the old provisioning for the IAT sensor?

Also, why so modest on the tires? I was at 50psi.

You didn't mention your 190 miles trip average speed. Mine was 57mph for a 250 mile trip.

The Saturn S-Series is one vehicle in particular that has been PROVEN to respond to HAI by MANY people...
Some answers to your suggestions, Coils have some surface rust on the enclosures. They have been removed and cleaned along with the icm. They work fine. Valve cover does not leak. Wires have been changed, there not oem. The valve cover breather tube has electrical tape on it, yup thats Scotch 33, best tape on the market, no leak here. Will check the tubing clamp. The part of the intake tube for the sensor had been cut off, no need to seal. My $1.47 meat pan shield is a temp project. It gets 50-60 degrees over outside air.
I'm not cheap but I'm not looking to replace good usable parts.
That 190 mile run was all interstate 68MPH, both runs. I would pay the hit for comfort and wear and tear on my car and radio equipment. I tried high tire pressure, not for me. Any other ideas why my mileage sucks on this car. My other wagon, a 1999 SW2 auto has a running MPG of 32 over the last 4 years. Thats an average of town, interstate 65-75, and air.

Steve
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:37 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by drifttec101 View Post
I really ... want to be a jackass ... engineer with an extensive background in motorsports.


Sorry, those are your words, not changed one bit.
The thought ever cross your mind to do the testing yourself, Mr. I Really Wanna Know?

Personally I don't care how or why it works. I just enjoy reaping the benefits it gives my car/my wallet. My city average is 27-28, it should be 21 according to EPA. I drive the car as casual as any other motorist on the road, using zero hypermile techniques. I simply don't care at this point since gas is cheap(ish) again and not $4+/gal. For highway driving I just try to not exceed 70mph and even at 65 I'm still getting 36-38 mpg.
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:47 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by tvsteve View Post
Some answers to your suggestions, Coils have some surface rust on the enclosures. They have been removed and cleaned along with the icm. They work fine. Valve cover does not leak. Wires have been changed, there not oem. The valve cover breather tube has electrical tape on it, yup thats Scotch 33, best tape on the market, no leak here. Will check the tubing clamp. The part of the intake tube for the sensor had been cut off, no need to seal. My $1.47 meat pan shield is a temp project. It gets 50-60 degrees over outside air.
I'm not cheap but I'm not looking to replace good usable parts.
That 190 mile run was all interstate 68MPH, both runs. I would pay the hit for comfort and wear and tear on my car and radio equipment. I tried high tire pressure, not for me. Any other ideas why my mileage sucks on this car. My other wagon, a 1999 SW2 auto has a running MPG of 32 over the last 4 years. Thats an average of town, interstate 65-75, and air.

Steve
What kinda plugs are you using, the NGK's (I hope)?

How's the fuel filter? Been changed in the last 30k?

How's the air filter?

You really should block the hole in the airbox where the IAT sensor used to be... it's like a 2" gaping hole in your lower air box sucking in ambient air.

Also, 68mph is a little high. I wouldn't expect 35mpg at 68mph unless everything is tip top. Somewhere on the net there is "Mythbuster's experiment" results showing how increased speed influences decreased mpg.
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:59 PM   #68
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haha I like your sense of humor. I would love to do it all myself but I only have one street car and no money for an experimental car. Plus MegaSquirt is kind of pricey, maybe around $350 for a complete unit. The really expensive stuff is PI data aquisition systems. You have to buy their software too. MoTec has free software, but the equipment is similarly expensive.

Then on top of it all most states have emission laws that require readings from the OBDII computer. If you have MegaSquirt there's no way you can pass emissions. People have done some pretty neat stuff though like running fake injectors and spark plugs off of the stock ECU so it looks as if the car is still using the computer.

I was just hoping that someone has some real knowledge of why their modifications work. That's all. I'll stop asking if no one has any answers though.

-Mr. I Really Wanna Know
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Old 01-29-2010, 03:02 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by drifttec101 View Post
What's the difference? Reduce power gain fuel economy, gain fuel economy reduce power.
That effect is similar. The difference is when we talk about changing the cause, with alternative strategies/modifications like not opening the throttle as much. You can use a different cause of the same effect (reduced power), but it won't necessarily result in ALL of the same effects.

Quote:
I really didn't want to be a jackass, especially to the moderator, but here goes... I'm an engineer with an extensive background in motorsports.
I only wear my moderator hat when moderating...I'm just another user when we're having decent discussions like this. You're not being a jackass, you're just trying to make a point and/or learn why other people believe their ideas so strongly.

Yes, it can come across as offensive when a relatively new user challenges the established user base's generally accepted knowledge (and WAI isn't even generally accepted; IIRC there's classic users who disagree). We have to try to separate the "how dare you challenge me" emotion from logic. Without being challenged, we forget the important logic that we use to figure these things out, and we never chase it to create new logic.

In this case, if we could do the research that you want, we could learn what makes it work (or we could learn that it doesn't work, but I've seen too many people get good results for that to happen). If we learn what makes it work, then we may discover something we can use to do even better.

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I don't have the time or money to do this type of experimenting otherwise I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Yup, that's pretty much how we all are. The best we can come up with is trying things and observing results. We each avoid trying things that seem unbelievable.
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Old 01-29-2010, 03:27 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by spotaneagle View Post
block tempurature/ cooling system temp, have a direct correllation to mpg, because when it is colder it uses more gas to stay warm.. this is one of the benefits of grille blocking
This is inaccurate. A colder head/block temperature on a modern EFI motor will reduce the octane requirement and allow the ECU to run more timing for a given fuel octane thereby reducing fuel consumption.
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