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Old 01-29-2010, 03:42 PM   #71
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[QUOTE=theholycow;146984]

In this case, if we could do the research that you want, we could learn what makes it work (or we could learn that it doesn't work, but I've seen too many people get good results for that to happen). If we learn what makes it work, then we may discover something we can use to do even better.



QUOTE]

I really like your thinking. Also, each manufacturer will have different computer control algorithms for the different models, and even change these algorithms for different years. From what I've learned on 2ng.org (a second generation neon forum), Chrysler has not made the algorithms for 2gn Neons available to the public, or to aftermarket manufacturers like Bully Dog etc. Therefore, there are no piggyback ECU units for Neons like there are for early Hondas and other cars (I don't know much about other cars though). Strangely though, the Neon SRT-4 which is the 2.4 L turbo version of the Neon has had it's computer's algorithms exposed to aftermarket manufacturers, so now there is a relativley large aftermarket in tuning of SRT-4's.

Basically what I'm getting at here is it's extremely complicated to pinpoint what a modification is really doing, and how it's doing it. Will something that works on a Saturn work on my Dodge? Who knows?!
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:03 PM   #72
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What kinda plugs are you using, the NGK's (I hope)?

How's the fuel filter? Been changed in the last 30k?

How's the air filter?

You really should block the hole in the airbox where the IAT sensor used to be... it's like a 2" gaping hole in your lower air box sucking in ambient air.

Also, 68mph is a little high. I wouldn't expect 35mpg at 68mph unless everything is tip top. Somewhere on the net there is "Mythbuster's experiment" results showing how increased speed influences decreased mpg.
The sensor was mounted on the intake tube. That was removed, hole sealed and remounted where the resonator connected. See pix. Using NGK "V" plugs. Air filter clean and fuel filter changed 5K ago. I might also blame the low MPG on the poor gas here. My wife's 2001 SL2 is down to 28-29MPG. I can't compare to my other wagon, that's covered for the winter. I bought that one new back in 98.
Steve
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:08 PM   #73
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tvsteve, are you comparing a winter run with WAI to the fall run without it? If so, a 1 MPG improvement would probably be a pretty good indicator that it is very effective; you should see a significant drop in fuel economy with colder weather, winter blend gas, and so on.
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:11 PM   #74
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tvsteve, are you comparing a winter run with WAI to the fall run without it? If so, a 1 MPG improvement would probably be a pretty good indicator that it is very effective; you should see a significant drop in fuel economy with colder weather, winter blend gas, and so on.
The WAI run was in November, If I remember right the outside air was 30F colder. I will try again in the spring under more controlled conditions. Could have been a combination of winter gas and cold temperatures. Filled up yesterday for a tank MPG of 30. That figures in the real cold we had and local 5-15 mile trips. BTW car is kept in a semiheated garage, at 50F.

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Old 01-29-2010, 06:20 PM   #75
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tvsteve - your HAI is constructed just like mine, even the IAT sensor spot sealed like mine. Was I the inspiration!??!! That'd be awesome! lol I wouldn't sweat your current mileage much, when the weather gets hotter you'll see great gains from the HAI. I must've gotten my first taste of true winter gas last time I filled up. I'm on course to a 21-22 mpg tank of 100% city. That and my check engine light comes on each day reminding me the rear o2 is toasted.

drifttec - I don't think you'd have a problem running a MS through e-check. It can be wired in as a full standalone, but it can also just be run as a piggyback for under your *altered conditions* only.... in piggyback form, you retain your stock ECU for controlling everything else so that idling/city driving is still normal and the MS only takes over at X setting.

I've been reading a lot about the MS system, its HUGE in the turbo Miata community. If I'm not mistaken the reason MegaSquirt came about essentially was for the miata community.

I dare tell you, to learn ALL THERE IS TO KNOW, AND THEN SOME, visit www.miataturbo.net but I warn you, be on your game or do yourself a favor and remain a silent member and just read (I suggest this). They'll chew you up and spit you out if they find the slightest imperfection in anything you say.
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Old 01-29-2010, 06:40 PM   #76
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[QUOTE=

drifttec - I don't think you'd have a problem running a MS through e-check. It can be wired in as a full standalone, but it can also just be run as a piggyback for under your *altered conditions* only.... in piggyback form, you retain your stock ECU for controlling everything else so that idling/city driving is still normal and the MS only takes over at X setting.

QUOTE]

hmmm I haven't read anything about that before. That's something I'll have to look into. One of these days I'll do a MS project, not anytime soon tho.
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Old 01-29-2010, 07:12 PM   #77
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That's the definition of detuning.... that's what I'm talking about!

50 extra horsepower and 30 extra mpg. .

sounds like a saturn with an highperformance exhaust system and intake system with lighteneed everything and a fuel heater added to it
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Old 01-29-2010, 07:34 PM   #78
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What's the difference? Reduce power gain fuel economy, gain fuel economy reduce power. I really didn't want to be a jackass, especially to the moderator, but here goes... I'm an engineer with an extensive background in motorsports.

What I want to see from someone is real tangible evidence as to what is going on when using a successful WAI. Obviously, some parameters are changed, but without a data logging system such as PI or even MoTec no one really knows what is changing, and furthermore, how it's changing.

That probably won't happen, so I shouldn't hope for it. But, if somehow somebody did find out what parameters change to decrease fuel consumption then that would be a window into further adjustments. If you had a standalone ECU such as MegaSquirt then you can easily adjust these parameters and really get down to tuning for decreased fuel consumption.

I don't have the time or money to do this type of experimenting otherwise I'd do it in a heartbeat. Here's a picture of my personal race car.
You show us a picture of your personal race car, but don't have the time or money to test a WAI setup?

The difference when the temperature of incoming air is what you want to have explained, so here it is.

Take it to the extreme, way to hot and your fuel boils in the lines. Way to cold and it freezes. Both of these are way beyond any normally encountered conditions.

Engines produce best power per molecule of fuel consumed when the manifold vacuum is lowest, without enrichment.

An engine is basically a glorified lever, squeezing a mixture of air an fuel and igniting it to create a pressure differential and useful work.

Warmer air means less fuel for the same volume of air-fuel mixture. Not the same mass since it is warmer but the same volume. Air density decreases as temperature increases, by about 25% from freezing to 200 degrees (both fahrenheit).

Since you can open the throttle more when the air is less dense and contains less fuel. You can increase the effective compression in the cylinders by reducing the manifold vacuum. This increases the strength of the "lever" by increasing the pressure of the mixture when it ignites and increasing the power developed, compared to the same mixture if it was cooler.

It also increases the vaporization of fuel as the mixture temperatures rise. Should be apparent to anyone who understands that there is a freezing point and boiling point for any liquid, including gasoline.

If you don't think so place a drop of fuel on a metal surface and gradually increase the temperature of the plate by starting out with it at 32 degrees F and increasing it to 212 degrees F, while measuring the time it takes for that drop of fuel to completely vaporize.

Mixture in modern engines is controlled by the oxygen sensor, which measures the O2 levels post combustion, so ultimately no fooling of the intake sensors will have more than a very temporary effect on the O2 sensor reading which is the prime correction of fuel mixture regardless of other inputs. This is assuming you are not dealing with an engine that has any malfunctions. The final arbiter of mixture is the O2 sensor.

Maybe you wont like this explanation, but I know it works for me. Of course it depends on the ambient temperature and is more effective when temperatures are lower than 60 degrees ambient. Its the same reason that in the old days you had to preheat the air going into the carburetor to prevent carb icing. Since the gasoline wont freeze until close to 100 degrees below zero, how can it freeze in a carburetor below 60 degrees? The answer is it doesn't really freeze, it just doesn't properly atomize.

In a manual Insight the mileage gain can be as much as 10 MPG. I would estimate that in my CVT Insight it is about that same amount. This is when ambient temps are below freezing. While cold air does not affect atomization in a high pressure fuel injected engine, the fine particles of fuel atomized by the injectors will better complete their evaporation if they are warmer that colder. The act of atomization increases the surface area of the tiny droplets and they will absorb more heat, if they are cold, but they will atomize better if they are already warmer. Most modern fuel injected engines allow the fuel to be warmed by the radiant heat from the engine. This can be seen by monitoring the temperature of the fuel in the fuel tank, and return loop injection systems actually use the fuel tank to cool the fuel as it travels through the loop of delivery and return to the tank.

Basically when you increase the temperature of incoming air and fuel you are effectively reducing the displacement of the engine, if you consider the mass of the incoming mixture as the determining factor.

I think I posted this before but it's been a while .


regards
Gary
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Old 01-29-2010, 07:38 PM   #79
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I have been following this thread for some time and tried to apply some of the ideas on my 1997 SW2 Saturn. I purchased this car about a year ago and the measured fuel has been 30-32MPG. It uses no oil, Has no drivability issues. It's a 5 speed and currently has 87K. I have added a partial radiator block and a WAI. My intake AT is 50-60 degrees over ambient measures on my SG. Engine temp is 195. Early in the fall I took a 190 mile run I have made prior without the WAI. The run with the WAI measured less than 1MPG saving. My winter mileage currently is 30MPG. Tire pressure is 30/32, Transmission is filled with M1 ATF and engine 5W30. Car is well maintained. I guess my rubber band wasn't wound tight enough?

Steve
on my 99 i had to caulk around my headlights, because the way saturn designed them, they are not snug to your car, also you will be keeping water out of your engine compartment. but you gotta be smart to do it so it doesn't look dumb make sure you do the test at at least 40-50 degrees f at least, I don't think that WAI works so well in the winter as it does in the summer

I keep stressing here that air Velocity come into play when designing your cold air intake, you have to not let cold air into your engine compartment, thats why in the summer you will see huge gains because the heat has no where to go, your car will stay hot for a long time, be glad if you 1mpg on a 20 degree day like today cause that coul be 8mpg in the summer or more and all you can do is improve also do synthetic saturns love this stuff will help you burn less oil if you use pennzoil platinum,

Think of a new triple paned window and how tight and snugg everything is, this is how these rigged devices have to perform, my last one I built out of tape which conforms nicely to everything but you have to be sure you're not going to close to the engine,

on a saturn, the magic trick is get a juice concentrate top(METAL PERFECT SIZE) and cover the original intake hole after taking out the piece that was in it.. take the sensor out and put it above the air filter or inside the air box through the new tube you put in, The one I built out of tape camE out of the back of the air box after using a door handle hole cutter to create the hole i put the sensor in that tube inside the air box then tape underneath my air box to my battery and behind it so air from over the cooling hose and from the engine was sucked into the back of the box without fail, this is a little complicated and I call it the SATURN WARMER AIR INTAKE. I ACCEPT PAYPAL
DONATIONS, JK
That's good for a 5spd

if I had an Automatic saturn I would go out the resonator hole(left of air box) and pump super hot air in the engine, I still havent heard ANYONE'S feedback about 5spd warm air intake and gas pedal/clutch release in first gear height... that's why when people want to do this I tell them to go for a warmer air intake like above for a 5spd and a hot air intake for automatics(air from over headers), I would think they average out to be the same, I don't know, this foggy area needs more examination..



But Make sure you use clear silicone rubberized caulk on the head lights, make sure its for windows, because it wont fade.. I also had grill blocked over my fog light holes, this isn't actually grille blocking but its all feeds air into the engine compartment...

check your mud flaps/guards to make sure they're tight

ALOT OF NOVICES THROW THESE THINGS OUT WHEN THEY WORK ON THEIR OWN CARS, THEY NEED TO BE INSTALLED PROPERLY FOR YOUR ENGINE COMPARTMENT TO STAY WARM, OR ELSE AIR GUSHING BY YOUR CAR WILL SEEP IN

I had to go to the junkyard and buy mud guards (wheel well plastic) for like 5$ a piece because my car, cause the guy who owned it before took them off. it would not shift right from gunk on my linkage... and the transmission was always cold and shifted badly

this is all common sense stuff, also I had A/C in both of my cars, meaning there was an extra layer in from of my radiator, condensor, i would say leave that there always, because it protects your radiator from debris and keeps it warmer to some extent, acts as a block sort of, and if your like me and you remove your compressor cause you dont care about a/c then leave that on..
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Old 01-29-2010, 08:00 PM   #80
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Some answers to your suggestions, Coils have some surface rust on the enclosures. They have been removed and cleaned along with the icm. They work fine. Valve cover does not leak. Wires have been changed, there not oem. The valve cover breather tube has electrical tape on it, yup thats Scotch 33, best tape on the market, no leak here. Will check the tubing clamp. The part of the intake tube for the sensor had been cut off, no need to seal. My $1.47 meat pan shield is a temp project. It gets 50-60 degrees over outside air.
I'm not cheap but I'm not looking to replace good usable parts.
That 190 mile run was all interstate 68MPH, both runs. I would pay the hit for comfort and wear and tear on my car and radio equipment. I tried high tire pressure, not for me. Any other ideas why my mileage sucks on this car. My other wagon, a 1999 SW2 auto has a running MPG of 32 over the last 4 years. Thats an average of town, interstate 65-75, and air.

Steve

ohhhhhh hahahaha i get it now

saturns dohn 1996-1998 vs 1999-2001 have a mpg difference if you do your research i believe sohc do as well because they redesigned the pistons to give the cars better low end torque in 1999


which meant dohc 5spd mpg highway 1998 34 1999 35(according to saturn, 1 less on each according to fueleconomy.gov)

which could actually mean 1.5 aka 2

hence 30-32 mpg in 1997 sw2 and 32 mpg in 1999 sw2

im thinking the low end torque improvement could net better results in the city where it's needed more.
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