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Old 06-16-2009, 03:13 PM   #21
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EPA is IMO pretty much struggling to stay ahead of the pack and maintain a sphere of authority and thus retain their power. Meaning that things they formerly had domain over have moved more into conventional and more mainstream enforcement processes... hence we'll see a lot of "just because they can" rather than "because it was necessary" type crap from them.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:17 PM   #22
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What is a "battery"
Howdy Gary,

I too have wondered about this "Battery Vs. Hydraulics" situation. Seems to me that what hydraulics has to offer has not been very much explored as of late.

My friend Ian (Drysdale, an Australian who makes the Drysdale V8 motorcycle... Google it) built a two-wheel drive off-road motorcycle a few years back. Instead of an unwieldy (and heavy) chain drive to power the front, he used a hydraulic motor in the front wheel hub. I don't know if this pricing info is still valid but, at the time of the build (which went well, BTW), Ian told me he couldn't even have begun to think about the project if someone in industry hadn't given him a hydraulic motor of the correct size. In fact, the gifted motor came first, and only then came the idea of what to do with it.

Ian says the companies that control the world of hydraulics are very much a "closed shop" affair. You call for price and availability, and the tiny hydraulic motor is thousands of dollars, and if you don't wanna pay it, well you can "Kiss our ruddy *rse, mate!"

The reason for this mindset could be that they serve the manufacturing industry, who will pay anything to keep their production lines rolling. Instead of trying to get more cows (customers), they just milk harder on the teats they have at hand (tortured analogy, but accurate). Short-sighted, sure; but perhaps they see the "electronics" writing on the wall, so they intend to get it while they can.

Also, be they good or bad, batteries are the darling of the investment and scientific sectors right now. If it runs on (virtually non-existent) Lith-Ion batteries, there's all the money in the world to finance a start-up. But announce a breakthrough in an "affordable hydraulic accumulator & motor" and the world of High Finance would yawn itself to sleep in ten seconds.

Looks like Batteries 'R' Us.

ADiF
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:42 PM   #23
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The reason for this mindset could be that they serve the manufacturing industry, who will pay anything to keep their production lines rolling. Instead of trying to get more cows (customers), they just milk harder on the teats they have at hand (tortured analogy, but accurate). Short-sighted, sure; but perhaps they see the "electronics" writing on the wall, so they intend to get it while they can.
Tru' dat, there's not a lot of difference between the internals of mitsubishi 6G72 and G54B forklift and industrial motors and their automotive counterparts... compare part prices between the industrial suppliers and normal automotive sources.

Edit: well to give you an idea, think what a part should be worth, then times it by 4 to 8...
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:38 PM   #24
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nope. they've got to figure out how to tax it(mileage/usage) before they can allow it.
As long as it is not a plug in Hybrid then the fuel used to create the electricity is being taxed. If they have to figure out a way to tax electricity created by an internal combustion engine then what are they going to do about vehicles like the Chevy volt?

The fuel used to create the stored electricity is taxed so what is the problem?


Also I have never thought about the efficiency of hydraulics with respect to automobiles before. Thanks for bringing that up.
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Old 06-17-2009, 01:42 PM   #25
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[QUOTE=mikemoss;136869]The fuel used to create the stored electricity is taxed so what is the problem? [QUOTE]

it was an anti-govt, "tongue in cheek" cheap shot. if they couldn't figure it out, perhaps they couldn't grasp the tax savings(and potential lost revenue).
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Old 06-17-2009, 08:25 PM   #26
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[QUOTE=Allargando DiFortissimo;136783]
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This from one who has a Shove-Vette for an avatar? Irony is my favorite mineral.

Then again, you've got a point. I own a Polar White Prius: We call it "The Fridge," which fits both its beauty and its driving excitement, and even speaks volumes of its utilitarian nature. Odd thing is, it doesn't seem to "use" anything. Uses no oil, needs no timing belt, (almost) no gas, and it appears the tires and brake parts will rot off before they wear out. I'm an American, dangit! I'm supposed to be a consumer! I feel so un-patriotic.
i dunno what it is about priusus (or pri? yea that debate again lol) but they do not appeal to me in anyway...

yes ill agree the hatchback is an amazing design that i wish more cars would use INTELEGENTLY i say that cuz most of em now seem to have flatish backs that look more like a mini van rearend not the 45* slope of the 70-80's economy cars. the 45* angle ones seem to hold more crap without having to fold down the rear seats. or "rear deck lid" dunno what its purpose is lol. ive crammed a pushmower, leaf blower, weedwhacker, and a 1gallon gascan back there without having to fold down the back seat and my friend could sit back there. love to see a prius do that lol

haha u dont know driving excitment till you drive a light RWD vehicle with no power anythign on snow and a true manual transmission. (rather have it that way then theres nothing to break lol) or be able to take cornners going way to fast

sure now it doesnt use oil or any parts wear out just wait when somehitng does and its 3X as expensive as domestic parts. ive replaced the entire braking system on my chevette for less than $100 (thats everything from calipers, wheel cylinders, pads, shoes, related drum springs, master cylinder and a few odds and ends) bet that would barely cover one caliper on a prius

also i hope your prius uses some oil as it still needs to be changed!

lotta cars dont use timing belts (timing chains, just as lethal to an engine when they go) and when my belt snaps in my chevette? no damage, just realign the crank and cam slap a new belt on and away i go. several people have done it at a parking lot... i wish they woulda kept non interferince engines....

hehe id love to see if that battery lasts 29 years...

i really want to find a diesel chevette tho. instant 50+ mpg right outa the box
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Old 06-17-2009, 10:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by VetteOwner View Post

lotta cars dont use timing belts (timing chains, just as lethal to an engine when they go) and when my belt snaps in my chevette? no damage, just realign the crank and cam slap a new belt on and away i go. several people have done it at a parking lot... i wish they woulda kept non interferince engines....

hehe id love to see if that battery lasts 29 years...

i really want to find a diesel chevette tho. instant 50+ mpg right outa the box
Did that once...when my water pump died at 1:30 in the morning. Slept in the car, next morning walked several miles to an auto parts store, got a pump and put it in...the timing belt was very noisy until I got home and adjusted the tension properly (80 lbs, IIRC).
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:06 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by VetteOwner View Post
yes ill agree the hatchback is an amazing design that i wish more cars would use INTELEGENTLY i say that cuz most of em now seem to have flatish backs that look more like a mini van rearend not the 45* slope of the 70-80's economy cars. the 45* angle ones seem to hold more crap without having to fold down the rear seats.
This is a time when my shallow side comes out of hiding and actually manages to compete with my practical side...I don't know why, I just think hatchbacks are ugly, whether vertical or 45 degree sloped or whatever. The only way to make them look okay to me is a very horizontal slope as found on 3rd and 4th gen Camaro, Mitsubish Eclipse, etc; or to have a decent length of metal parallel to the ground making it look like a trunk (some cheap economy cars came like that, I don't remember which).

The 45 degree ones were the worst. Almost every non-sports hatchback in the 1980s looked like a carbon copy of the next - Dodge Omni, Ford Escort, Volkswagen Rabbit, etc...

Anyway, I don't understand why a more vertical hatch would reduce space, unless the car was shortened. If the car is the same length then the more vertical hatch should increase interior space. Or are you talking about ability to leave the hatch open while driving and allow stuff to hang out?
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:16 AM   #29
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i dunno what it is about priusus but they do not appeal to me in anyway
Probably the same thing that I found wrong with 'em: The people who buy them!!!. Most Prius owners are religious zealots, and think they've finally found God in their car, and you're 'unwashed" if you can't "follow the light" and buy one... like they did.

Next thing y'know, they'll be going door-to-door on bicycles trying to talk everyone into the "buy a Prius, save the planet" concept. Me? My dad died and left me ALMOST enough money to buy a new car. I paid cash for new 2006 Honda Civic Si. Kept it 8-months, put 1100 miles on it, and sold it. Very boring, juvenile car, which I didn't "get" 'til I'd lived with it a while. My first new car; lesson learned. Let your eyes make suggestions, but don't chose a car (wife?) with them. I (of course) think my wife's pretty but, even if she weren't, there would be tons of good things to recommend her. It's the same with my Prius... except for that "I think she's pretty" part. (chuckle) A Prius's beauty lies in the fact that it greets the air with a .26 drag coefficient, lower than anything in production. (the old out-of-production Honda Insight was .25, and so is the new Prius)

Bought the Prius 'cause it's HUGE inside, and I can barrel up-and-down the Interstate at 80mph getting 50mpg. My 60,000 mile FE average is 67-and-some-change. If I were to take out the Interstate trips, it's close to 74mpg. Modifications consist solely of 48psi front tires, and 42psi rear. And so it was that we came to welcome the Prius into our stable.

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haha u dont know driving excitment till you drive a light RWD vehicle with no power anythign on snow and a true manual transmission
I have a '59 Austin-Healey BugEye Sprite with a 195 horsepower Mazda RX-7 Rotary engine... does that count? (550cfm Holley 4bbl on Racing Beat intake manifold and hand-crafted (beautifully, I might add) headers & exhaust. Also fitted with wide three-piece wheels and lightly-treaded DOT-legal racing rubber.

Stock '75 MG midget rear end, so just sidestep the clutch and you'll disappear in cloud of.... spider gears & pinion shaft shrapnel. Don't ask me how I know. It was freak accident caused by my hitting a patch of sand under power in 1st gear. One rear wheel spun, then caught traction again, followed by two quick "axle-tramp" events. Whereupon the spiders did their ashes to ashes, dust to dust routine & disintegrated. Since it weighs almost nothing, I pushed it the two miles back to my garage.

You are right about parts prices, but admit it: That's a red herring. If Toyota prices were cheaper than Chevette's, would you buy a Prius? Didn't think so.

Besides, there's two ways to look at it: One cheap car that needs lots of cheap parts, or a moderately-priced (and NEW) car that with proper care needs almost NO parts... . There are many documented 350+ thousand mile Priuses with all original brake parts (in taxi service, I'm assuming occasional brake fluid change, but don't know this) so it doesn't matter to me what a Prius caliper costs. BTW: As of this writing, those taxis still have their original traction batteries... with no apparent degradation.

Also, regarding the "Prius's traction battery; the "JUST YOU WAIT" idea is a valid point to bring up, but is also of no consequence. The Prius runs just fine without the expensive battery, and I don't know how any rumor to the contrary ever got started.

Instead of my 70-85mpg in-town mileage, it'd be more like 40 (boo-hoo!). Yes, the 350k taxis have their original batteries and, Yes, they will wear out at some point. But, as of now, no one knows when that might be. All we know for sure is this: In devilishly hard conditions, the "at some point" is somewhere north of 350k miles.

Also, the battery used to be (I'm told) about 6-grand. Right now, it's about 3-grand. By the time it "needs" replacing (which it really never will), there'll be Wal-Mart alternatives. There are millions of these things on the road, and I don't think anyone really believes the aftermarket won't step up when the time comes to sell millions of parts.

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i wish they woulda kept non interferince engines....
Yeah, it'd be nice for people who don't bother with maintenance, but no-can-do with the Prius's 13-to-1 compression ratio. Time-is-money, and compression-ratio-is-fuel-mileage. Besides, all cars seem to be returning to the chain. Belts are almost gone now.

I have cars like yours, and I have the Prius too. I bought it 'cause it was NEW, and BIG, and THRIFTY. People at the gas station ask me, "Yeah, but how many miles will it take you to reach payback on that fancy 2,000-dollar hybrid system?"

To which I look at their ride and reply, "I'm not sure... how long will it take you to reach Payback on your Explorer's $3,500 Eddie Bauer package?"

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hehe id love to see if that battery lasts 29 years...
Now VetteOwner... I do believe you're JEALOUS! (spoken in girly-like voice).

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i really want to find a diesel chevette tho. instant 50+ mpg right outa the box
That would be a nice cheap way to drive. I've only ever seen two-or-three of 'em... well, more like "heard two-or-three." Were they "low-production" rare or is it just attrition that's whittled down their availability?

I remember when the Oil 'Vette came out, but never have driven one, nor known anyone who did. I figured it was the kind of car that all your friends would laugh at 'til they noticed you'd racked-up 200k miles on less TOTAL OUTLAY than the yearly insurance rates on their 3-series BMWs. And don't get me started on German car parts pricing? Again, with my Smart, I intend to not wear out ANYTHING that's Smart-car specific. And as for my "unforseen" SmartParts needs, I'm considering buying a wrecked one. Smart's protect their passengers extraordinarily well, but they sacrifice their own lives to do so. Between that, the high price of German parts AND the fact that a new one is only around 13-grand, there ain't much money to be made from spending three weeks of intensive labor trying to fix one that's had a really stout wallop. Instant parts for me!

Bestooyoo Vette-person, and happy motoring... from the heart of the Vatican-City-On-The-Eastern-Seaboard

ADiF
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:30 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allargando DiFortissimo View Post
BTW: As of this writing, those taxis still have their original traction batteries... with no apparent degradation.
I imagine that daily use and putting on a lot of miles all at once, you'll get far far more miles out of the batteries than you would with light usage.

Quote:
Also, regarding the "Prius's traction battery; the "JUST YOU WAIT" idea is a valid point to bring up, but is also of no consequence. The Prius runs just fine without the expensive battery, and I don't know how any rumor to the contrary ever got started.
I thought that the electric motor was an important part of the Prius's performance and assumed that it's painfully slow without it. Am I wrong? (I really haven't given much attention to the Prius.)

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There are millions of these things on the road, and I don't think anyone really believes the aftermarket won't step up when the time comes to sell millions of parts.
Agreed. It's pretty likely.

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People at the gas station ask me, "Yeah, but how many miles will it take you to reach payback on that fancy 2,000-dollar hybrid system?"
This is one of the major reasons you're unlikely to see me in a Prius. I don't want attention. I want to fly under the radar. I don't like to be noticed. There are a few other major reasons for me, too. There's also some things I'd really like about it, but they aren't enough. It's a great car for others, just not right for me.
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