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Old 06-07-2006, 06:18 PM   #41
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Synthetic just tastes better...and less filling.
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Old 06-07-2006, 06:43 PM   #42
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Synube It Baby!

Hey you guys should read the Synlube info about how all that petro based oil breaks down and the stuff Synlube sells is not petroleum based. Also you can only make a liquid so slippery no matter what you do to it, the rings still have to slide over a film of it. Now what Synlube does is use a solid lubricant that coats the metal parts in the pores making them smoother and seal against the rings better PLUS they lubricate at the top and bottom of the stroke when the rings against the walls are not moving for an instant which is when the oil film breaks down and causes a little bit of friction. The Synlube is still there making the walls of the cylinders slippery and reduces that little bit of extra friction. Also you don't have to change it because it does NOT break down into sludge like petroleum oils do plus because it seals the rings against the cylinders better you get more compression and less blowby keeping the lube (I don't call it oil) cleaner longer and the special filter (5-8 microns) cleans out the contaminents. Last longer, change less, or not at all 150,000 miles!
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Old 06-07-2006, 06:58 PM   #43
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Oil user here.

Ive used M1 with M1 oil filters or Pure One filters for years. Syn's handle low and high temps alot better than dino. They also have alot better add packs. I run my M1 10k miles easy. No more than 5k on dino's.
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Old 06-07-2006, 07:19 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psyshack
They also have alot better add packs.
What's that mean, psy?
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:48 PM   #45
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Metro

All oils have additive packages. These add packs are the other half of the product. and what adds alot of the cost above whatever the base is whether its syn or dino.

Take the fact that syns flow better at low temps. thats because syn base stock just does this better. Then take the high temps that syn's handle better. Thats a result of the base and the add pack. Detergents and conditiners are part of the add packs. Along with stablizers.

It would seem that dino oils start breaking down before the additives. So they dont put as much in. Where as the additives start breaking down in syn base oils before the base does.

Take the Mobil Clean series of dino oils. I think there the 3000, 5000, and 7500. Basicly they just add more additives. Base stock is basicly the same.

Most name brand dino oils are good for 5k miles. Some can be pushed out to 7500 miles. But thats about the limit of dino oils.

Syn's like M1 and Amsoil can go 10k to 15k miles with no problems.

Oil companys make a big deal about there oils syn or dino but never speak much about there add packs. Thats where they all hide there secrets,, and there very hush hush about them.
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:54 PM   #46
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Here is what i noticed.

I have full synthetic oil in my car, and all of my motorcycles, and in my moped, everyone on MopedArmy that rides very much swears by synthetic two stroke oil for longer living engines, better power, I also have synthetic tranny fuild in my moped, and it runs so quite, and smooth.
I just put the amsoil 10w 40 in my honda CB125, and it's shifting better, and running better, I had maybe 400 miles on the dino-oil that was in there after an engine tear down to repair a pin hole in the crank case, the fact that it shifts smoother, and runs better I take as it lubricating better, last summer I did a switch from dino-oil to amsoil in my CB100, and I had a digital spedomitor, did a handful of test runs down the exact same road each direction clocking the speed at wide open throttle, repeated that test a few days latter, then changed my oil and did it again 15 minutes latter, and my top speed went up by 2.5mph or about 4%, and it has stayed at that top speed sence then.
my old 1984 civic DX hatchback I gained soild 3mpg, went from 39 to 42mpg when I switched to synthetic oil without doing anything else, no driving tricks, just straight highway driving at 70mph.
I've done so many other repairs on my civic VX that I don't know what my gains are, and I just recently got an amsoil filter, partly because they could sell me a longer filter (nearly twice as long) so I have more filter media, befor then I just walked thru looking at oil filters unill I found a 10 micron filter, and went with that, as that is the basic clame of the amsoil filter is that the filter down to ten micron, most that I looked at were 15-20 micron filters, if they stated it at all, and there is no standard that they are required to filter to, so unless they say how small, you don't really know what you are getting,
but the main reason I switched to synthetic is that I'm lazy, and don't like cralling on my back under cars to chage oil, and 25,000 mile oil changes sounded really good, and I've worked on enough engines that show wear, and scuff marks on bearings that a better oil had alot of appeal, I like things that I own to last as long as possible, so I maybe shouldn't, but I'll leave synthetic oil in my motorcycles for 2-3 years, insted of changing it every fall.
Matt started out staying however that his idle was lower, I found the opisit to be true, that the lower friction did rase my RPM enough that I re-adjusted it.
also amsoil is apparently made from Moble base stock, and that the aditives are the only real difference, the stablizers, and friction modifiers.
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:59 PM   #47
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AMSOIL is not made from Mobil base stock! Where in the world did you hear that?
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Old 06-07-2006, 10:29 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katman
AMSOIL is not made from Mobil base stock! Where in the world did you hear that?
from two differnt amsoil dealers in wisconsin, close to where the amsoil compeny is based, is it not ok to buy your ingredents from the competition? and if that is the case then where are they getting them from?
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Old 06-08-2006, 04:49 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by n0rt0npr0
I cannot prove Synthetics cause leaks. In 6 out of my last 6 vehicles I've visually encountered increased oil seepage AFTER I went from dino juice to synthetic. Didn't matter whether it was Royal Purple or Mobil One, after 500 miles of use, new spots of oil have occurred on my driveway. Mileage? I've made the switch as early as *edit* 20K to as late as 230K.
One advantage to synthetics I've found is a little better overall fuel mileage(went from 22mpg to 24mpg in one vehicle but generally 7% increase in economy)
I've done tests on dino oil, and I can't get dino oil to last longer than 8,000 miles in any 1988-1994 GM 60 degree V6 engine. My synthetics are lasting 25,000 miles by comparison. Using the same $6 filters too. Over three times the longevity there.
$13.50 for dino oil change
$32.00 for synthetic oil change

After 25,000 miles, I save $8 on the oil changes + the time involved to do them in my driveway + $431.22 worth of gas.
Well one more thing, I am not figuring the cost of "topping off" but as you can see with those gas savings, I wouldn't really need to.

So with 14 years of synthetic oil usage, I can conclude that synthetic oil use does lead to increased oil consumption but still significantly less overall than if you were to keep doing Dino oil changes every 8,000 miles.

We're here to contribute ways to make us less dependant on crude oil reserves, and this is just a small drop in the bucket but every drop counts.
~Will
No leaks here. I've seen studies somewhere that showed about a 5% increase in fuel economy from running synthetic vs dino oil. I run Mobil 1 and Purolator Pureone filters in all my cars unless I happen to find another good brand of synthetic at 1/2 off or something, which is rare anymore. I expect it will save some money, too, from the increased MPG's and extended drain interval. I haven't got the guts to run it 25k. The longest I've gone is 10k so far, with no ill effects.
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:13 AM   #50
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I've done a fair amount of reasearch on the differences between Synthetic and Conventional oils. I've even read some journal articles on tribology just to see what was new and up and coming, most of it referenced industrial lubricants though. Anyway, what I've come up with are these differences:

Conventional oil (Dino):
Base stocks are distilled crude oil that is refined several times, and separated based on their viscosity. Additives packages are added which include viscosity modifiers, friction modifiers, and anti-oxidizers. The additive packages are proprietary for each manufacturer, but on a whole are generally same with the exception of the amount and possibly the different friction modifiers. Molybdenum disulfide tends to be the favorite of the industry. Since the base stock is refined crude oil it has a whole bunch of "junk" in it. Plus, as stated from other members, it doesn't not have molecules of uniform size. These larger and smaller molecules tend to break down quicker than the "regular" sized hydrocarbons. This is the main reason why previous oil change intervals were 3k miles. Not to mention the refining process was not as efficient way back when. Now a days, you could go 5k miles on dino if you drive say 12k miles a year, and you're not racing the engine a whole lot.

Synthetic oil:
Based stock are made in a lab through chemical reactions. First developed by the Germans in WWII since their oil supply was cut off by the allies. Synthetic oil base stocks are 99% uniform. Synthetic oil base stocks can also have a different composition than dino oil. The more expensive motor oils tend to be PAOs (polyalphaolefins). Additive packages remain similar to conventional oils with a collection of anti-oxidizers, friction modifiers, and viscosity modifiers. Synthetic oils break down slower than conventional oils since the molecules are uniform size and composition. However, synthetic oils still break down, but their life span can range from 5k miles, to 20k.

It is my understanding that oil breaks down irreversibly due to heat. The way a hydrocarbon chain breaks down is by oxidization (essentially an oxygen molecule added separating the chain). The anti-oxidizers in the additive packages slow this process but can't stop it. In some respects an oil cooler could actually extend the life of your oil, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that since my guess would be the oil would tend to break down near the hot spots in the engine(cylinder wall, piston pins, etc).

As for FE, I have yet to see any test that conclusively shows a gain in between dino and synthetic. Most of the tests compare syn to syn, or dino to dino, or they just skip FE all together a look at wear and tear. The things that would increase FE would be friction modifiers, and viscosity modifiers. Obviously less friction and less pumping power needed would increase FE, but none of the modifiers currently used or tested show any substantial increase in FE.

So here is my take on this whole debate. If you drive little, don't thrash on the engine, and do a used oil analysis tests every so often, Dino oil is just fine. If you drive a lot, live on the redline, or even live in cold weather (dino doesn't make 5 weight oils as far as i know) then synthetic is probably a better choice.

As for me personally I use synthetic. I bought my car in Feb. and already put 9k miles on it. The DC area has a lot of stop and go traffic, high speeds, and stuff that generally does a number on an engine. I use synthetic just for the peace of mind. I plan on getting a oil analysis test done after my next oil change at 12k miles. I have never seen any increae in FE due to synthetic, although I don't have the equipment or the time to do any testing with proper conditions. If there was an increase, or even decrease, it was so small as to not be noticable through daily driving.
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