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Old 09-14-2005, 07:54 AM   #1
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The amazing gas mileage blunder

As a company, Honda has been concerned about gas mileage long before it was ever popular. See this article for more information: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8272373/site/newsweek/

The great blunder I speak of belongs to Honda. Let's take a stroll down memory lane and examine just how much Honda has deviated from it's previous goals:

<table border="1">
<tr>
<td>car</td>
<td>city</td>
<td>highway</td>
<td>combined</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><p>1985 CRX HF</p> </td>
<td>49</td>
<td>54</td>
<td>51</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1987 CRX HF </td>
<td>52</td>
<td>57</td>
<td>54</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1988 CRX HF </td>
<td>50</td>
<td>56</td>
<td>52</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1991 CRX HF </td>
<td>49</td>
<td>52</td>
<td>50</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1992 Civic VX </td>
<td>48</td>
<td>55</td>
<td>51</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1995 Civic VX </td>
<td>47</td>
<td>56</td>
<td>51</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>1996 Civic HX </td>
<td>39</td>
<td>45</td>
<td>41</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2000 Civic HX </td>
<td>35</td>
<td>43</td>
<td>38</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2001 Civic HX </td>
<td>36</td>
<td>44</td>
<td>39</td>
</tr>
</table>

Then there are the hybrids:

<table border="1">
<tr>
<td>car</td>
<td>city</td>
<td>highway</td>
<td>combined</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2000 Insight</td>
<td>61</td>
<td>70</td>
<td>65</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2002 Insight</td>
<td>61</td>
<td>68</td>
<td>64</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2004 Insight</td>
<td>60</td>
<td>66</td>
<td>63</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2005 Insight</td>
<td>61</td>
<td>66</td>
<td>63</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2003 Civic Hybrid </td>
<td>48</td>
<td>47</td>
<td>48</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2005 Civic Hybrid</td>
<td>48</td>
<td>47</td>
<td>48</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>2005 Accord Hybrid </td>
<td>29</td>
<td>37</td>
<td>32</td>
</tr>
</table>


*based on EPA ratings from www.fueleconomy.gov

A few thoughts on this. Honda was making very fuel efficient vehicles back in the 80s. These cars are 20 years old now and still get superior gas mileage. As the years progressed, the fuel economy worsened. The introduction of the HX was a huge blow to Honda's gas mileage capabilities. The HX is basically the same technology as the VX, only it gets 10 fewer miles per gallon.

And then there is the Civic Hybrid, which claims to have the most advanced technology a Honda has seen. Unfortunately, you would still be better off with a Civic VX from ten years ago.

I recently commented on Honda's new engine. It is a 1.7L engine that gets the gas mileage of a 1.5L, and yet has the power of a 2.0L engine. I have no idea why Honda, who claims to have a long lasted concern for fuel economy, gives in and builds a BIGGER engine. you would think that they would be better off building a 1.5L engine that gets the gas mileage of a 1.3L, yet the power of a 1.7L.

It has taken Honda 20 years go get back to where they started. At least they are still in the lead.
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Old 09-14-2005, 02:33 PM   #2
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Engine shipping question!

Yes, I have thought about this many times, and use it to make fun of people who drive hybrids thinking it is the best thing ever when really a prius is not good compared to a crx hf. Seriously, some article I was reading, the author owner a prius and under normal driving it got 42.5, gosh that sucks. In any case, thhe 2006 Civic Hybrid will have a 1.3 liter 3-stage vtec giving it the fuel economy of a something less and 110 hp. But then it has to haul so much weight around, so really it ends up getting 50 epa and 47 under normal driving.
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Old 09-14-2005, 04:06 PM   #3
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what baffles me is when people claim to be buying these cars to save money.

first of all, if you want to save money, buy a used car. Secondly, if you want to save money, hybrids usually cost at LEAST $5k USD more than non-hybrids. It will take tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of miles to make up for that money. If you really want to cut consumption, save money, etc... buy a used car. Get a CIVIC VX that can get 50+ mpg in stock format for around $3000-$4000 USD total. Your insurance will be lower, your car payment will be lower (if not non-existant) and you'll be the envy of all of us.

That being said, I can't wait to install my z1!!! (it's actually not a z1. it's a JDM d15b vtec-e, which is exactly the same thing)
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Old 09-14-2005, 06:22 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Timion
That being said, I can't wait to install my z1!!! (it's actually not a z1. it's a JDM d15b vtec-e, which is exactly the same thing)
Yeah, but it's jdm, so better. Haha, not really, but some folks might think so. I thought the site actually said it was the d15z1, dinnit?
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Old 09-14-2005, 06:29 PM   #5
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Yeah, it did say that it was a d15z1. I think they did that because too many people were buying it thinking it was one of the other two d15b (the d15b vtec, and the d15b 3 stage vtec). Selling it as the USDM equivilant makes sense I guess.

So are you going to get that one from the guy in Texas? If not, you should send Jonathan_ED3 his contact info. He's in TX and is interested inthe z1 as well.
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Old 09-14-2005, 06:37 PM   #6
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The guy stopped responding to everything though, I'll have to find his email and send it to jonathan.
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Old 09-14-2005, 10:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVOboy
The guy stopped responding to everything though, I'll have to find his email and send it to jonathan.
Very weird. you might be better off with a JDM d15b vtec-e like me. The miles are super low, and from the looks of it I only have 2 broken sensors.
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Old 09-16-2005, 08:46 PM   #8
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Over the last 25 years each

Over the last 25 years each generation of Acords and Civics has grown in size. So much so Honda is getting ready to add another car to the lineup. It will be a step smaller than the Civic and more the size of the original one. Right now it is being called the Fit or Jazz in other parts of the world. It my have another name here in the US. Look for it in the spring of 2006. It is to compete with Toyota's Scion.
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Old 09-16-2005, 08:49 PM   #9
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That's true. I totally forgot about it or I would've posted it. I think it'll be called the fit in the US also and is being given the title of "econobox" though I have absolutely no idea what kinda gas mileage the thing is sposed to get, but it is popular around the world so heck.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:47 AM   #10
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How is this Honda's blunder? Increased crash test standards, emissions standards, and Americans desire for large vehicles is the cause of increased vehicle weight and size; as well as creating the need for stronger, more torquey engines.

The HX may be the same concept as the VX but it's actually a step up in technology. The VX is notoriously unreliable. Any small problem, such as a vacuum leak or a worn out sensor; results in very poor driveability. I got my VX cheap because it was bucking hard. An aftermarket cruise control system was to blame. The vacuum T had cracked creating a small vacuum leak. If it had been a DX, CX, EX, or LX, it's likely the owner would never have noticed a problem.

Car companies have to follow the market. Quite frankly, Americans didn't care one wit about gas mileage. We started to take notice when the prices shot up, but it didn't change people's choice in vehicles or driving behaviors until it reached $4/gallon. Honda took the VX, made it into an attractive coupe with more interior space, increased safety, power steering, power doors and windows, bigger wheels, bigger brakes, much more power especially in the driving range, and made it much more tolerant of small problems and normal wear and tear (OBD2 requirements also had a hand in this). All this, and the mpg in the real world is actually comparable to the VX. Having driven an HX and having owned a VX, I would put the actual mixed gas mileage difference at 3-5. I would also recommend the HX over the VX to anyone that values driving comfort at all. The small loss in FE is worth the trade-off for a more comfortable, more powerful, more safe, and more reliable Honda Civic HX. (I personally hate the 6th gen Civic but that is because I nit-pick all kinds of things that don't matter to the average driver.)

If you want to ***** at Honda how about you mention that they switched the Civic from double wishbone suspension to the inferior Mcpherson strut design? Or that they discontinued the Integra? Or that their engines don't make the hp/liter that they used to? Hondas today are more marketable to the typical American but you wont ever catch me in one!


I think the most interesting fact that you can derive from the data you provided is that if you want to buy a used car to save money, then it is absolutely stupid to pay an inflated price for a VX. At $3000-5000, how long will it take you to get your money back on the difference in FE between your current vehicle and a VX? If you were smart, you'd get a mid eighties Accord. They can be had for $1000 or less and typically get 40+ mpg on today's gas and with today's tires. That, and no expensive/rare to find O2 sensor!!!
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