The New new Freon

[GasSavers_Scott]

Well since the 90's we have changed from the ozone eating R-12 to R-134a. Now when the new 134a came out they said it is corrosive and will eat up your AC system. Well 134a has been the standard and I havent had any real problems with it. Now the government ie. EPA says that the leaking of freons from the rubber hoses in cars is still bad, so now they want to change over to a newer freon.

A basic R-12 AC compressor takes about 8 horse power to run, a 134a compressors takes 12 to 14 hp. The new gas the EPA wants to use requires a compressor to go from 250 psi to 400 psi, making the compressor take 20 horses from your car. Translate this math into MPG and to make the ozone safer, we have to burn more gas and plug the hole in the atmospher with more Co2.

When refrigeration was invented in the 1800's they used amonia, why not switch to amonia in cars, I dont know if environmentally amonia is better.

[dieselbenz]

Propane works for me. Also your HP numbers are off by an order of magnitude.

[Jay2TheRescue]

I think its all BS. R-12 was heavier than air, so tell me again how it depletes the ozone layer high up in the atmosphere? It was just a way to levy high taxes on R-12 and force people to pretty much buy new cars & refrigerators when they broke, instead of repairing them.

[theholycow]

Ammonia cooling systems work differently and would not be good for use in automotive air conditioning systems.

[GasSavers_Scott]

Hey tjts1, as Im am always concerned with accuracy, if I got any numbers wrong, I would be glad to say Im sorry. I am going through the papers in the recycle bin of last week which I read the article about the New Freon. I remember clearly the article said the average 134a system takes 14 hp to run and with the new freon it would require 20. Any corrections gladly appreciated.

[FrugalFloyd]

Originally Posted by Jay2TheRescue

I think its all BS. R-12 was heavier than air, so tell me again how it depletes the ozone layer high up in the atmosphere? It was just a way to levy high taxes on R-12 and force people to pretty much buy new cars & refrigerators when they broke, instead of repairing them.

That's not a very good argument. You're saying you don't understand something, so it can't be. Last I heard, ignorance is not a good friend to embrace in a logical discussion.

Freon/CFC facts. It's been detected in the atmosphere since the 1970s.

Ozone depletion facts.

[Jay2TheRescue]

You cannot deny that the manufacturers love a "new" Freon coming out every 10 years or so though. Imagine your average consumer, driving a 10 year old car. A/C breaks, and the vehicle is taken in for service. The owner is told that its discontinued, and there are huge taxes on the refrigerant. It will be $1,500 to repair the system. Not wanting to spend that kind of cash on a 10 year old vehicle, the owner is now forced to either drive w/o A/C, do a retrofit (which usually produces mediocre results), or buy a new vehicle.

[kamesama980]

There's a lot of talk about it at my school (auto tech at SIU carbondale) and actually HFO 1234YF (the new refrigerant) runs comperable pressures to current HFC R134a. You can use the same gauges with an adapter fitting, even convert R134 to 1234YF. the biggest difference is in hose construction since 1234YF is slightly flammable.

http://www.1234facts.com/betterchoice.html
http://www51.honeywell.com/sm/genetr...rigerants.html

The next biggest contender was R744 which is just CO2. AFAIK it was turned down due to needing to run system pressures of 1000-2000 psi, accordingly to run a good safety margin, the system would be able to handle 3-4k psi. the size and weight of the components was one concern but also equipment able to monitor and charge the AC system to that level would be prohibitively expensive. You'd also have to have technicians trained and certified to run it wheras 1234YF has similar enough rules, specs, etc to R134 they can just make a note on the side, so to speak. Parts of the EU is still looking at this but that's about the only place that is.

part of the reason R12 nd R134 are being phased out is the lifespan of the gasses... R12 sticks around for 50-100+ years. R134 decays around 10. 1234YF is 11 DAYS. 1234YF decays into stuff naturally occurring in the atmosphere I just read. It's also less environmentally bad to manufacture than R134.