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Old 07-18-2007, 11:52 PM   #31
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I don't think people are too brash on these boards. To be blunt and honest, I think a lot of people here are like drones. I know nothing about people except their desire to save fuel. That's all well and great, but it does get a bit boring after awhile. I wish people here displayed a little more individualism sometimes. These thread examples that Bill has pointed out are really actually refreshing in a both a good and bad way. I like to see that these threads don't turn out almost exactly the same as every other thread here, but at the same time, there is no need to crucify an innocent person either.

I have stopped coming here because I think I have taken away all that I can from the site. The same is probably true for a lot of people who have mysteriously vanished over time. I have learned many of the tricks of the trade and have found out most all of the aesthetically pleasing modifications that can be done. Perhaps I am not so much of a fuel saving nerd as some here, but I do like to save money wherver it is reasonable. When people have taken away all that they can here, only the people and the personalities will keep them coming back. I highly doubt that there will be enough vibrance here to keep me posting for a whole lot longer.

No offence to anyone in particular.
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:05 AM   #32
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If everyone jumped off a bridge wouldn't that include you?
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:20 AM   #33
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skewbe -

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Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
If you were doing something that was hurting someone else, would you care? Would you be defensive if someone tried to point it out to you?
Philosophically, I really do try to be self-aware to the point where that is not an issue. People have different definitions of what "hurting someone else" means. I think I agree with your definition but people aren't going to make the same connection, at least not at first. Over time, some people will see it your way, and other's never will. As far as I'm concerned, if they save gas, then they're a GasSaver.

(I wish that everyone in the USA would just change their driving technique and slowwww-downnnnn. Based on what we are achieving here, It would be a wonder to see.)

Quote:
If 2 people pull the trigger on a gun aimed randomly and someone else dies, are they less guilty by half? What if it was millions of people pulling on the trigger (by strings or whatever, work with me here)?
I understand, but they aren't going to change if you "attack" them. They are going to go away and not learn how to save gas (aka keep pulling the trigger). And I quoted "attack" because greenhorns won't necessarily know your "voice" on the forums. What may be your "normal banter" may make them defensive.

From my POV, on the Internet, you and I are *only* our words. Written words lack tone of voice, so there is something missing when we communicate this way. I don't know where someone is coming from until they have posted for awhile. I *know* not to be offended by what someone writes off the cuff, but I don't assume that someone else is going to have the same "web learnin" as me.

I went over to the GasSaver Garage and counted about 700 cars. Assuming that there are 10 regular lurkers for every member, that makes about 7700 "regulars". I am actually being generous because many people have multiple cars and there are alot of dead gaslogs in the garage too. I think Matt would know better about the equations of forum membership in relation to how many people are visiting the site.

I hate to say it, but unfortunately, I think we are "ambassadors" at this stage of the GasSavers game .

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Old 07-19-2007, 03:34 AM   #34
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I understand what he's saying in the old "if you saw someone driving off a cliff, would you yell at them to stop" argument. I've subscribed to it myself with respect to, shall we say for the purposes of neutrality, "theological considerations".

However, the way to win people over to your point of view is certainly not to bash them, which I don't think happens much on this board anyway. There are ways to respectfully disagree with others. Unfortunately, in our modern 30-second-CNN-soundbite culture, it's easier just to spout something sensational and inflammatory -- and I'm not excluding myself!

OT: It always cracks me up though how people of certain political persuasions implicitly insult others by referring to themselves as "intellectual" or "erudite".

IMO, there are PLENTY of ways to keep the board fresh, such as publishing thoroughly-documented studies (like someone else mentioned), although no one seems to have time.
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:35 AM   #35
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I'm getting the impression you are trying to shame us Bill.
Nah, you guys are the ones who deserve the respect. Someone who goes away after a little grilling isn't half the man that those of you who do this stuff day in and day out for months are. I would just like for new people to be brought in in a way that helps ensure their retention and helps ensure that they at least receive some benefit. Maybe they aren't willing to be terribly serious, but if they can improve their mileage by 2-5%, then we all benefit. Anyway, I think I'm done. Thanks for participating.
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Old 07-19-2007, 07:24 AM   #36
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As usual, there are about a gazillion viewpoints, and they're all valid.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
By the same token if you're in the kitchen, don't throw around hot water and knives, because we're all supposedly working together.

As to suggestions that Hummers or Jeep Cherokees or whatever could be traded in for something else - shucks, we'd be remiss if we didn't suggest changing vehicles. If we start name calling though, that's not how we'd want to be treated ourselves.

As for hypermiling such beasts - I'm sure one could. Seems like 40-50% over the EPA's current (recently revised) numbers is reasonable for most vehicles without extensive mods, so a 10 mpg thing would maybe get about 14-15 and a 15 mpg thing would maybe get 22ish. That would be better than non-hypermiled. And for some folks it would be the best option. Buying a "new" used car and getting it roadworthy usually costs significant money, so driving what you have often makes a lot of sense.

My $.02
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Old 07-19-2007, 07:45 AM   #37
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This has already been covered

The truth is, there are very few things you can do to make your car more efficient. After that, you get a bunch of new people asking the same questions over and over again. The great thing about a board like this is that if you have people who are good mentors, they can help the newbies through those initial changes. But if you have the wrong people setting themselves up as gurus, but who do not have the patience and character of a real guru,they just drive people off.

I first noticed the snarkiness when I asked a sincere question about fuel additives. "That's already been discussed."

Well, it might have been discussed by you 2 or 3 months ago, but it's my first time to discuss it. It's even worse if somebody with way too much time on their hands answers every newbie question with "That's already been discussed." The thread dies after that. The guru has spoken.

A real guru will allow people to discuss ideas and let them come to their own conclusions. I would only jump down somebody's throat if they were suggesting something illegal or really dangerous. Otherwise, it's not the end of the world. Some people learn by doing. Don' deprive them of that experience. It's not always a shortcut to give all the answers. If we do nothing but jump all over people for asking questions (even if it's a stupid question to me) they eventually stop asking questions and just leave.

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Old 07-19-2007, 07:51 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dunlop View Post
However, the way to win people over to your point of view is certainly not to bash them, which I don't think happens much on this board anyway. There are ways to respectfully disagree with others. Unfortunately, in our modern 30-second-CNN-soundbite culture, it's easier just to spout something sensational and inflammatory -- and I'm not excluding myself!
You must have read "How to win friends and influence people." I loved that book. But it was a disappointment for me that nobody else seemed to understand the subtleties of relationships after that.

There is a way to disagree respectfully. But it takes practice and patience. Patience is not well understood in our sound clip culture. Unfortunately, knowledge without character leads to snarkiness. Then you have the anonymity of the 'net, and all hell breaks loose.

I guess there should be a warning that comes with every computer, kind of like when you play paintball. "Enter at your own risk."

After all is said and done, though, there is no substitute for a thick skin.

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Old 07-19-2007, 08:24 AM   #39
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Well, my wife drives a Navigator and I have a long commute. So, flame away!
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Old 07-19-2007, 09:29 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theclencher View Post
"So, I started this thread to let everyone know when a there's blood in the water in a certain thread, so that everyone can go pile on."

Great idea!

This will save me lots of time.

Seriously, there is the arguement that since I'm not buying the other person's gas, they can do what they want. There is some merit to that idea, but the fact is the collective wastefulness of others DOES affect me. High demand does force prices up, then there's pollution, congestion, geo-political madness, and all that. If I want to preach about something I have concluded is defective in some way, I'm gonna.
Your insistence on shoving your ideas down others throats by "preaching" only turns others off, never brings them to your way of thinking, and says more about YOU then them.

Why are you so...ah....religious about this?

Calm down and be civil...otherwise your attitude will push people in the OPPOSITE direction that you want them to go...hello?!?
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