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Old 07-17-2008, 03:02 PM   #1
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Unbelievable

One of our techs here at work just ordered a "water for gas" kit. After I finished laughing at him and let him explain his thinking behind it and what he is going to try it made a some sense, but I'm still sceptical. He said he did his research on the different kits, and with a big enough hydrogen genrator and a big enough alternator (for the power to split the water to get the hydrogen) he says "if it can be done I'm going to do it". His neighbor (not a friend of a friend) claims he saw a 20% increase in FE on his diesel truck. He has his own small business, reconditioning and performance modifications on older cars, and I think he figured out a way to write off the kit so he's going to give it a try. I gave him a little more crap about it and his last defense was "I've thrown away $300 on dumber things before so I'm going to try". If anyone cares more about this I can keep you updated on what his conclusions are. The only reason I am giving him any credibility at all on this subject is because I've seen what this guy can do "just for fun". Like fitting a bored out Cadilac V-8 into a Saturn SL-1 body that he acquired. Major modifications of all kinds were required, and a lot of tweaking to overcome some overheating problems (imagine that) but he did it and the car is FAST! He's a little older now with 2 kids and I think he's going form more HP to more MPG. That would be awesome because he really knows his stuff and i can pick his brain for free.
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Old 07-17-2008, 05:17 PM   #2
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Sounds like the kind of person who would give a fair analysis, from a guy who sectioned and channeled a 49 Plymouth businessmans coupe and put it on an 83 Nissan piskup truck chassis, with a 240 Z engine and transmission.

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Old 07-17-2008, 05:27 PM   #3
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One of our techs here at work just ordered a "water for gas" kit. After I finished laughing at him and let him explain his thinking behind it and what he is going to try it made a some sense, but I'm still sceptical. He said he did his research on the different kits, and with a big enough hydrogen genrator and a big enough alternator (for the power to split the water to get the hydrogen) he says "if it can be done I'm going to do it".
Feel free to run whatever experiments you want, and be sure to report back here. However, FWIW hydrogen injection has been discussed a lot in this forum, just search for HHO for discussion of that topic. Bottom line:

1) It's well known that if the hydrogen was "free" (as in didn't take power from the engine to produce it from water), that you would gain some fuel economy from doing so (if for no other reason than the fact that hydrogen is a burnable fuel)!

2) BUT the laws of physics state that you will always be BEHIND in the energy equation, when you are using energy to make the hydrogen (vs say getting it in tanks of hydrogen gas you fill up from some other source). i.e. the laws of physics require that the energy used to make the hydrogen fuel (in the car, from the water) will ALWAYS BE GREATER than the energy you get from burning it.

2a) So if it was just a matter of "generating your fuel from water" (as some claim) than you will ALWAYS LOSE, as it take more fuel to generate the hydrogen than you get back from later burning it in the engine!

2b) This also means that simply having a big beefy alternator won't (by itself) lead to a "win", as the more electrical power you generate in the car (i.e. the bigger alternator you use to generate the large amounts of electricity you are using), the more fuel you use/waste due to greater drag of the alternator on the engine! This would seem to indicate that hydrogen generation would always be a fuel economy loss (not gain), but see below:

3) However some designs for hydrogen generation apparently use (engine)"waste heat" (energy you might not otherwise use from the engine, that you are making anyway) to do some (or all) of the effort of generating the hydrogen (vs doing all the work via electricity generated by the alternator). In theory using "free energy" (electricity in the car isn't "free", as you have to increase fuel use to generate it, but the "waste heat" may be "free" as you might otherwise just dissipate it via the radiator). So if your hydrogen generator makes use of heat that would otherwise be thrown away, in theory it might improve fuel economy (by using a source of energy that was otherwise being wasted in the car, i.e. the heat from the engine, and using it to make useful hydrogen fuel).

4) And there has been some discussion/theory that some levels of hydrogen can combine with normal car gasoline synergistically, and burn better than the sum of the burn properties from both the gas and the hydrogen alone. If this is the case (and the jury appears to still be out about this possibility), then (in theory at least) using the "right amount" of hydrogen may be able to give a fuel economy boost (to the gasoline) beyond the energy cost of producing the hydrogen in the first place.

NOTE: Points 3 and 4 in theory could be combined. i.e. if there is a special ratio of gas to hydrogen that really does burn synergistically, than (at least in theory) you could use that burn ratio while also using "waste energy" source of power (at least in part) to make the hydrogen in the first place.

However, since point 2 is clearly valid (i.e. you spend more energy making the hydrogen from water, than you get back by burning it), the only possible way that this could be a "win" is if (and only if) points 3 and/or 4 are not only valid, but actually larger factors than the loss of energy mentioned in point 2. And the jury still seems to be out as to if that is the case.
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Old 07-17-2008, 07:23 PM   #4
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I don't think it's possible, but it will be intersting to hear about it. I will keep you updated on progress as it happens.
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Old 07-17-2008, 08:32 PM   #5
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"3) However some designs for hydrogen generation apparently use (engine)"waste heat" (energy you might not otherwise use from the engine, that you are making anyway) to do some (or all) of the effort of generating the hydrogen (vs doing all the work via electricity generated by the alternator). In theory using "free energy" (electricity in the car isn't "free", as you have to increase fuel use to generate it, but the "waste heat" may be "free" as you might otherwise just dissipate it via the radiator). So if your hydrogen generator makes use of heat that would otherwise be thrown away, in theory it might improve fuel economy (by using a source of energy that was otherwise being wasted in the car, i.e. the heat from the engine, and using it to make useful hydrogen fuel)."


Using something like this exhaust gas alternator idea?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005..._exhaust_.html

But even then it's not free cause then you would need a belt alternator and exhaust alternator to make enough juice for the car and hydrogen plant when if an exhaust alternator idea works you could just ditch the belt drive alternator and get a good deal of extra mpg due to not having the belt friction losses.
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Old 07-22-2008, 10:43 AM   #6
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No updates yet, still waiting for the kit. It's not even on my car but I'm somewhat excited to see what he can do with it. I'm having a hard time believing it can be done. If it could be done you would think someone a lot smarter would have done it a long time ago and it would be getting better press than spam.
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Old 07-22-2008, 11:04 AM   #7
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someone on here has actually suggested putting a second battery in the car to power the generator separately. deep cycle of course. then charge the battery at night or when the vehicle is parked.

though I have my doubts about the HHO thing, this option actually makes some sense. grid power is so much cheaper than alternator power and more efficient (I guess that goes into cheaper too). if it doesn't work out on the alternator, it may be an option.
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Old 07-22-2008, 11:23 AM   #8
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One other point of running the HHO off a separate battery is that if you could generate enough HHO with the secondary battery it would be like running your car on electricity off the grid without any conversion costs other than a deep cycle battery and the HHO generator. Sort of like making your own fuel to run your car on demand from electricity . . . better than ethanol!!
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:10 PM   #9
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2) BUT the laws of physics state that you will always be BEHIND in the energy equation, when you are using energy to make the hydrogen (vs say getting it in tanks of hydrogen gas you fill up from some other source). i.e. the laws of physics require that the energy used to make the hydrogen fuel (in the car, from the water) will ALWAYS BE GREATER than the energy you get from burning it.
I'm a big skeptic on all this too, and I'll jump in for a couple reasons. One, to get in on the thread.

Next, I have to also think about how the combination of two things might have different results than what they would independently.

Example: Diesel fuel burns pretty darn efficiently, but not perfectly. When propane is injected into a diesel, it can increase that efficiency.

Now, I can't say much about the hydrogen thing right now, but I'm willing to listen to some of this based on that idea.
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:34 PM   #10
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sd26,

to say that I am a skeptic is an understatement. I don't really think that the HHO in a car and running off of the alternator will work. I think that most of the people that are seeing gains are due to them leaning out their A/F ratio which is the concept of the HHO but I think that they are running too close for comfort (for me anyway) to the detonation point.

on the other hand, if you were to get the hydrogen from another source like an external bottle then maybe there is some merit to it. a friend of mine was suggesting that you actually produce the hydrogen at your house and compress it and use it like nitrous. well instead of a spray, have a bleeder that only flows a certain amount. after looking into the process of compressing hydrogen and the danger involved. that idea bit the dust.

the next best thing is what I had stated. running a deep cycle battery (that is in no way connected to the cars electrical system) to run the HHO generator and charge the battery at night. will it work? who knows but I think it would have a better chance than the HHO generators the way they are now.

I am talking like I am actually going to do this. these are simply the ramblings of someone with too much time on my hands. I would be more likely to put a belly pan on my car than play with HHO.

take it for what its worth, just thoughts of something that MIGHT work....maybe.....who knows
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