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Old 10-24-2007, 09:17 AM   #171
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Snax made a good point:
"decide whether it is a 'sin' tax or 'consumption' tax."

It's easy to see increased gas taxes as an effort to influence consumer buying (of gas and cars/trucks).

But really you could make a strong case that it's actually a way of having the consumer pay the REAL cost of that fuel.

True that the oil companies, distributors and the stations can get it into your car for the current price posted on the pump. However the real price is much, much higher than what you see.

How about the cost of the U.S. military messing around in the Mideast, to keep oil flowing? Hundreds of billions of $$. How about existing tax breaks to big oil? How about the delayed improvements and maintenance to highways that are going to catch up to us one day?

It's not that different from the 14 year old willing to cut your grass for just $10 using his dad's lawnmower and gas. Dad doesn't mind for now, the kid's real upkeep and support come from elsewhere, so you can get it done for cheap. If someone points out all the other input that enables that kid to cut your grass and decides that the real cost of everything is $25, that changes everything. You might decide to cut it yourself!

Not that I'm a total supporter of massive pump taxes. Some people would suffer. But we're really getting a subsidized deal on fuel in this country, and we whine when there's talk of making us pay the real cost. It probably really does cost something like $6-8 per gallon to keep that fuel coming. So we shouldn't complain if the price rises to match the real cost.

We might not like it, but we'll never make the changes we need if we continue getting our fuel without paying fully for it.
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:14 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by skewbe View Post
Please just try and be open to doing more. Telco thought he was all that and was close minded to doing anything else that didn't directly benefit him and his, and had a long list of excuses for not caring too.
i believe Telco, like myself, IS trying to find a balance between supporting the environment and his family. i must admit, saving gas for self gain, is a strong motivation. and, of course i care about the future of the quality of life on our planet.

unfortunately, fuel efficient buying is not cheap. having said that, smarter purchases are being made in my family as $ allows.

afterall, if i went out and bought a hybrid car,electric lawnmower,eff. fridge, solar panels, etc., and could't pay the mortgage or buy groceries, what's the point? superficially, that sounds selfish, but, is it? at least we're doing something positive.

i do not think GS is worthless tho. and it might suprise you Skewbie, that i am fond of you because it seems you DO care about mother earth and some of her imperfect residents. one great difference between you and i(besides the GW view) is you put a lot of emphysis on the negative enviro impacts, where i focus more on people.
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:24 PM   #173
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Randall,

you can't go around quoting Churchill or the founding fathers of the U.S.! in our time, these types would be considered war mongers,bigots, and in violaters of civil liberties.

thank God for the ACLJ(American center for law and justice), who battles the ACLU.
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:28 PM   #174
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In a nationwide survey this Summer, the average price that gasoline would have to reach in order for people to consider changing their primary mode of transportation was $5.45 per gallon.

So at $5.45 per gallon, over 50% of people surveyed would THINK about changing. I think the actual price of gas for that to happen would be significantly higher, especially if there is a gradual increase to that amount. If there is a gradual change, people will gradually increase their "breaking-point" price. I think we in the conservation-minded community tend to underestimate the attachment that people have to their suburban, single-occupant-vehicle-oriented lifestyle.

-Andrew
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:49 PM   #175
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small cars will never be popular unless 1 thing happens, the price of gas skyrockets.

other than that, you can do anything you want to small cars and people still wont buy them. look at the really popular cool small cars. forget about metros and such. look at the mini cooper, vw beetle etc. not too many of these are sold. why? americans_just_dont_like_small_cars. you cant get around that fact. small cars are viewed as cheap and made for people who cant afford bigger. in america you are jusged by the size of the car you drive. its easier to pick up chicks in a big cadillac than a metro.

you can never make small cars popular in america unless gas price goes up. it doesnt matter how cool you make the car, or what neat options it has, or how good of economy it gets. people just dont like the fact that its small.
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:13 PM   #176
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I have to chime in again...Capital Letters Added

I have to say something again...

A few years ago, "What would it take for you to drive a small, fuel efficient car?"

SUV Owners: "Oh, $3-4/gallon, definitely".

Where are we? Yeah, it's roughly above the 3-buck figure again. I don't see a lot of change. America forgets.

Furthermore, Americans are getting physically bigger, bigger is considered an "upgrade" in vehicles, and it's going to take a few things to change that.

Time.

People will choose to afford (or rack up debt) to support this FREEDOM -- to choose to guzzle gas to sit high and broad above the lowly compacts or hatchbacks is essential for self-esteem in this gotta-have need-to-BE market. A paradigm shift in younger generations is ESSENTIAL. Grassroots support of small cars, one at a time, to make it "cool" beyond one's 20's to drive efficiently needs to happen NOW -- shorten that span.

Responsibility.

When America owes up to the fact that we're using more energy per capita than anyone, and it impacts our health MORE or wrecks the environment MORE or the economy or our job-security MORE, then maybe -- just maybe we'll fess up.

Discussion/Education.

What we're doing here. GS is a good example.

/soapbox

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Old 10-25-2007, 07:50 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by ajohnmeyer View Post
In a nationwide survey this Summer, the average price that gasoline would have to reach in order for people to consider changing their primary mode of transportation was $5.45 per gallon.

So at $5.45 per gallon, over 50% of people surveyed would THINK about changing. I think the actual price of gas for that to happen would be significantly higher, especially if there is a gradual increase to that amount. If there is a gradual change, people will gradually increase their "breaking-point" price. I think we in the conservation-minded community tend to underestimate the attachment that people have to their suburban, single-occupant-vehicle-oriented lifestyle.

-Andrew
this just affirms my point about prices having to go WAY while along the way pre-$5.45 prices WOULD cripple lower income earners. and yes, the REAL change in the majority might require much higher prices, further hurting the poor.

thank you, good one.
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:55 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by csrmel View Post
small cars will never be popular unless 1 thing happens, the price of gas skyrockets.

other than that, you can do anything you want to small cars and people still wont buy them. look at the really popular cool small cars. forget about metros and such. look at the mini cooper, vw beetle etc. not too many of these are sold. why? americans_just_dont_like_small_cars. you cant get around that fact. small cars are viewed as cheap and made for people who cant afford bigger. in america you are jusged by the size of the car you drive. its easier to pick up chicks in a big cadillac than a metro.

you can never make small cars popular in america unless gas price goes up. it doesnt matter how cool you make the car, or what neat options it has, or how good of economy it gets. people just dont like the fact that its small.
excellent point! also, we MUST be given(manufacture) better FE choices in mid to full size cars. it can be done, but WE must prove they will sell.
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Old 10-25-2007, 08:42 AM   #179
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My automotive requirements are pretty strait forward:
1.The ability to transport 2 adults/2 children in relative comfort(ie:w/o having your knees up by your chin).
2.The ability to transport at least 40 cubic ft of cargo along with the above passengers.
3.Normally aspirated, SOHC 4cyl. engine w/automatic transmission - 2wd

Put it all together and you'll come up with the 2 vehicles in my garage.
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Old 10-25-2007, 01:42 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by rh77 View Post
Responsibility.

When America owes up to the fact that we're using more energy per capita than anyone, and it impacts our health MORE or wrecks the environment MORE or the economy or our job-security MORE, then maybe -- just maybe we'll fess up.
Additionally, if we (as a race) don't regulate ourselves - nature will take the liberty of doing it for us.

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I watched the movie Soylent Green for the second time a few days ago.... Yep, we overpopulated eventually leading to the death of the oceans... And that is why It's made of people!!. Hey, 2022 isn't that far away
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