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Old 10-26-2007, 10:11 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by trebuchet03 View Post
???

What they're arguing is what is taught in econ 101 basics. If we were to completely remove the gas tax, the demand curve will shift up - increasing consumption and thus increases the market value. Increase, the demand curve shifts down - this decreases consumption and market value decreases. The same thing happens when you tweak the cost per unit supply curves (such as the 70's gas crunch - note the number of econo-boxes that came out of that era ).
Actually, what is taught in econ 101 and higher courses is that for a given market item, if the demand is elastic, that increases in prices tend to cause a decrease in demand. What has been found, however, is that gasoline as a commodity is relatively inelastic in its demand--meaning that despite increases in price, the demand does not decrease in a direct relationship to the increase in price. They have found in the study that I cited in an earlier post, that gasoline is slightly more elastic than inelastic as previously thought.

What we did not see in the 1970's was a massive decrease in the amount of driving (unless you could not find gasoline due to rationing) was that people were suddenly interested in cars that got better FE. Which means that if the cars are available, and if the marketing is done to make them more attractive when compared to the SUVs (which did not effectively exist prior to the 1990's in the general public consciousness), there will likely be more of the FE cars purchased.

Generally speaking, I would agree with you, that as government services are provided on a local level, they tend to be provided fairly efficiently. What I object to strongly, is a broad increase in taxation on INDIVIDUALS as they tend to have the least control or voice in the decision process, especially as the processes move away from the local level (ie. taxation and the spending of the ill-gotten gains).

I do believe in forcing the auto manufacturers by government mandate, to produce (and market) better and more FE cars -- notice, I am NOT saying smaller cars. This is for a simple reason...these are corporations that exist as artificial "persons" by government declaration/license. Natural "persons" such as ourselves, exist and give the government existence.

Go after the manufacturers FIRST...and that is what the EU (actually, the individual countries) did first, but also decided to grab extra $$ from fuel taxes to fund other spending, not decrease the amount of fuel used...hence apples/oranges comparison between the US/EU.
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:14 AM   #192
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bowtieguy has me thinking about this one very important point:

The federal government of the US was 100% supported by tarrifs for a very long time. Only after tarrifs were removed did the government even need to tax it's citizens at all.
DING DING DING!!! Give the man a cigar!

I am sorry, but I just cannot even pretend to support a system where you are forced to give up part of your earnings under the threat of imprisonment or death versus a system where you can cut your "taxes" by not buying items that are taxed. The government (just about any you care to name) are entities that cannot and should not be trusted. Sorry...they are run by people.
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Old 10-26-2007, 11:00 AM   #193
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Problem is that tarrifs are a protectionist mechanism. They are a economic "wall" that un-levels the international playing field.

We used to have inter state tarrifs, where goods passing through states were subject to wildly unregulated fees. It was still a lot of money going into government coffers. It still will be with national tarrifs.

So the question is, if joe shmoe who lives on one spot on the planet wants to send goods to another spot, where is the justification for arbitrarily charging joe extra?
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Old 10-26-2007, 11:02 AM   #194
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Problem is that tarrifs are a protectionist mechanism. They are a economic "wall" that un-levels the international playing field.

We used to have inter state tarrifs, where goods passing through states were subject to wildly unregulated fees. It was still a lot of money going into government coffers. It still will be with national tarrifs.

So the question is, if joe shmoe who lives on one spot on the planet wants to send goods to another spot, where is the justification for arbitrarily charging joe extra?
Basically, the right of one nation to govern the import/export of goods across its borders...slightly, but not a lot better than the justification for taking Joe's income at the end of a gun barrel.
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Old 10-26-2007, 11:50 AM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snax View Post
bowtieguy has me thinking about this one very important point:

The federal government of the US was 100% supported by tarrifs for a very long time. Only after tarrifs were removed did the government even need to tax it's citizens at all.
This is very true... but today, we import in incredible amount of goods - and exports are low to none....

Bigger Bloat = more
Toy Exports

Toy Imports


Wood/Paper Export

Wood/Paper Import


Crude Petroleum Export

Crude Import


Electronics Export

Electronics Import


We're also the largest importer of cars on the planet... But our largest export is electrical and electric production machinery (you know, things consumers like us don't buy...)

For those interested here's what tariffs are in place (despite our high import numbers ) Here's the entire duty schedule.. In any case though, applied tariffs generally lead to higher product costs - in order for each middle person to make their same cut from markup, they have to charge more... That is unless domestic production goes up, but the price goes up compared to before the tariff (the whole reason it's there is to allow the domestic price to be competitive)...

And just for fun, because I didn't know China was the largest consumer of meat (US isn't even on the top 10)....
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Old 10-26-2007, 11:56 AM   #196
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So the question is, if joe shmoe who lives on one spot on the planet wants to send goods to another spot, where is the justification for arbitrarily charging joe extra?
The justification? It let domestic Don's higher priced goods become competitive - assuming that everyone is willing/can afford to pay the higher more competitive price

By effect, it's the same as an excise tax
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Old 10-26-2007, 01:25 PM   #197
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trebuchet03 -

Quote:
Originally Posted by trebuchet03 View Post
The justification? It let domestic Don's higher priced goods become competitive - assuming that everyone is willing/can afford to pay the higher more competitive price

By effect, it's the same as an excise tax
Doesn't the rest of the world apply forms of trade tariffs anyway? From my POV, the USA is just practicing economic cannibalism on itself for the sake of transnational corporations. They make the money, we lose the jobs, and our quality of life slowly goes down the tubes.

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Old 10-26-2007, 02:33 PM   #198
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I don't love the earth for earths sake. She's just a glorified rock.

Really, I don't mean to be harsh, but I see the difference as I am going forward with my eyes wide open, still afraid of the reality of our situation but not willing to lay down and pretend it isn't there. And I don't distinguish between Americans and non-americans so much.
was going to argue the American and non-American point, but let me give you a real world situation instead...

i would GLADLY give a needy person the coat off my back(and have done similar deeds), BUT not if my child needed one as well. hope you understand the parable.

i see both sides of the equation. we(Americans) have done things to make the world justly hate us, BUT we have also done MANY things to help other nations. obviously this is not news, but the good deeds go less noticed especially by our own media.

love my country, but fear my government.
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Old 10-26-2007, 04:46 PM   #199
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trebuchet03 -



Doesn't the rest of the world apply forms of trade tariffs anyway? From my POV, the USA is just practicing economic cannibalism on itself for the sake of transnational corporations. They make the money, we lose the jobs, and our quality of life slowly goes down the tubes.

CarloSW2
There's a lot of Free trade agreements today - compared to say, 30 years ago. For example, the 2002 steel tariff excluded Mexico and Canada as there would otherwise have been rather large fines due to free trade agreements... In any case, that tariff turned out to be a nightmare (we almost got into a major trade war with the EU on false steel price dumping pretenses).
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Old 10-27-2007, 05:12 PM   #200
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free trade a good idea???

free trade: commerce conducted unhindered by the governments of any involved trading country.

Does this really sound like a good idea?
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