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Old 10-29-2007, 10:51 AM   #221
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"we need to be worried about cutting total emissions" true that

more vehicles on the road every year +
more miles/vehicle =
more emissions every year

unless standards keep getting tighter

an alternative may be to stop the growth
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:58 AM   #222
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Quote:
an alternative may be to stop the growth
*ding! ding! ding!*

We have a winner!


Unfortunately, no leader in their right mind will ever voluntarily do that.
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:16 AM   #223
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Let me see....

WE buy the cars we want.
WE buy gas, whether it's expensive or not.
WE choose where to live and how long our commute is.
WE ski, snowboard, water ski, motorboat, race cars, used golf carts and ATVs, listen to IPODs, watch TV, and even use the damned computer; all using energy.

The fundamental reason that energy use is so sky high is that WE love to use energy. So, is it a surprise that WE elect representatives who would never deny us our energy?
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:57 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajohnmeyer View Post
*ding! ding! ding!*

We have a winner!


Unfortunately, no leader in their right mind will ever voluntarily do that.
Most humans, in general, won't do that either. Even more so when dictated by culture (in our case, a consumer driven economy). Which is why to keep up with the population explosion - tightening emissions standards attempts to keep up :/

-----
On the subject of LA - perhaps it's not as bad as it was in the 80's, but I still couldn't see the mountains when I drove by.... And the central valley... My old house mate's hometown can't see the mountains unless it rains.... Although, the brown clouds can be attributed to ag. equipment more so than cars... To be fair, both regions are affected by their local weather systems - but that doesn't change that writers' descriptions of the scenery 100+ years ago is veiled :/
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Old 10-29-2007, 12:50 PM   #225
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trebuchet03 -

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Originally Posted by trebuchet03 View Post
...
-----
On the subject of LA - perhaps it's not as bad as it was in the 80's, but I still couldn't see the mountains when I drove by.... And the central valley... My old house mate's hometown can't see the mountains unless it rains.... Although, the brown clouds can be attributed to ag. equipment more so than cars... To be fair, both regions are affected by their local weather systems - but that doesn't change that writers' descriptions of the scenery 100+ years ago is veiled :/
You mean "smoggy"?!?!?! I wish I could find the quote, but I think Native American's original name of the LA region was something like "valley of fog" or "valley of smoke" because the topography has *always" caused a hazy effect.

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Old 10-29-2007, 01:47 PM   #226
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rvanengen -

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Originally Posted by rvanengen View Post
...

I would counter that the MUCH shorter distances between destinations, smaller roads, lower speed limits, history (WWI, WWII, etc), lack of urban sprawl for many more years, rampant lawsuits, differing safety standards, and a few other unnamed factors (consumer perception, marketing, etc) have lead to the smaller more FE vehicles that are abundant in the EU.

The lack of diesels, though, I think we can lay mostly at the feet of California and the New England states that have followed their completely misguided approach to emissions in the last several years.
I'm happy I have cleaner lungs because of California emissions. However, I did some google-research and I found alot of articles that favor your argument :

It Gets 78 Miles a Gallon, but U.S. Snubs Diesel - May 27, 2001
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...y%20Efficiency
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To judge by the mileage it can get, the Audi A2 sounds like just the kind of exotic hybrid-fuel car that President Bush would want to promote with his new energy plan.

The sporty new four-door compact has a top speed of 100 miles an hour. It can travel 78 miles on a single gallon of fuel and emits fewer ''greenhouse'' gases than almost any other vehicle on the market. Yet the A2 has at its core a technology that generates scorn in the United States: the diesel engine.

The A2 is part of a powerful movement in Western Europe, where gasoline prices are often three times what they are in the United States. Diesel engines burn as much as 30 percent less fuel than gasoline engines of comparable size, and they emit far less carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, which have been implicated in global warming. After being disparaged for years because they were noisy, smelly, smoke-belching and sluggish, a new generation of much cleaner, more nimble diesel-powered cars is suddenly the height of fashion in Europe.

Diesel Car Sales Continue to Thrive in Western Europe - August 22, 2005
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...t_fotw386.html
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Sales from the first half of 2005 indicate that almost half (49%) of all new cars sold in Western Europe are fueled by diesel. Analysts say that the 50% mark might have been reached for Western Europe as a whole, if Germany did not have a shortage of diesel particulate filters that caused Germany's share of diesel sales to decline. Most countries in Western Europe continued to report increases in diesel market share in 2005.

Diesel Auto Sales Trending to Exceed Gasoline in Europe in 2006 - 30 January 2006
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006..._auto_sal.html
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The latest quarterly pricing survey by Pricewaterhouse Coopers and eurocarprice.com finds that diesels accounted for 49% (7,415,198 units) of the total European car market at the end of 2005. That represents a 7% increase in annual sales volume over the prior period.

Clean Diesel: The End of Clink! Clatter!! Clash!!! Smelly! Smokey!! - December 04, 2006
http://allthecar.blogspot.com/2006/1...k-clatter.html
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American?s look to Europe for many things ? wine, food, fashion and, of course, automobiles ? to name just a few. But one European automotive tradition has not made the journey to our shores: diesel engines for passenger vehicles.

Big, smoke belching 18 wheelers and heavy duty trucks? Yes. Cars? No! At least not yet, but wait ? there?s more, much more automotive retailers need to know about what their showrooms will sell and their service areas will repair and service in the near future.

Diesel cars have not sold especially well in the U.S., except to the very, very environmentally concerned. R.L. Polk, a leading data compiler has noted sales of diesel vehicles are up some 40 percent to 543,777 units, but that only amounts to 3.4 percent of all cars sold in America. J.D. Powers and Associates is predicting diesel sales may triple to 10 percent by 2015.

There is a persistent disease in the U.S., known to the automotive psychological experts as ?diesel knowledge deficiency.? It is a disease, which I hope to argue has severely disenfranchised the American consumer of high quality and ultra performance automobiles.

As of today, I don't mind diesel coming to the USA so long as we have clean diesel fuel and stringent regulation of diesel emissions.

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Old 10-29-2007, 01:58 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
rvanengen -

I'm happy I have cleaner lungs because of California emissions. However, I did some google-research and I found alot of articles that favor your argument :

<snip>

As of today, I don't mind diesel coming to the USA so long as we have clean diesel fuel and stringent regulation of diesel emissions.
CarloSW2
I too enjoy cleaner lungs! I just wish I had the same choice of clean burning cars that most of the rest of the world has enjoyed!! Who cares if the VW Jetta was one of the cleanest burning cars of the year???


I remember in the summer of 2003 buzzing around Spain in a great little 4 door Opel turbo diesel...I think it was a 1.4L...not a race car off the line, but after a couple seconds, it was scooting VERY nicely! After a couple days in the car, we filled it up at EU prices (BAD BAD BAD!!!), and I think we averaged about 50mpg in a mixture of city and highway driving using the A/C 100&#37; of the time!

That was a brand new (at the time) car that met the tough EU emissions...but we cannot get the car here...why?? At least two reasons, and more likely a third:

1) Might or might not have met US crash standards...but I am betting that it would beat the minimums w/o problems...
2) CA and the NE states have their heads firmly CRAMMED up their collective (dare I say it...socialist) rear ends...about diesels....even if this one was likely a CLEANER car than my wife's 2003 Taurus gasser...
3) And the biggie...I am sure that GM was convinced that nobody here would buy a comfortable, peppy, responsive and affordable smaller car when they can shove the latest incarnation of the Jimmy down our throats!

(errarrrraaaaggghhhhh!!!)
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Old 10-29-2007, 02:30 PM   #228
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so if they back off on particulate and smog forming emissions the smog and acid rain won't come back why?
Particulate filters can virtually eliminate the most annoying of the pollution from a modern turbo diesel...and since a diesel can use up to 30% less fuel than a gasser, it has to make you wonder why CA is so bullheaded to simply reject a car outright w/o finding out if it might actually be BETTER!?! Another source of pollution that would be reduced (not quite eliminated) by switching to diesel: fumes...you wanna cut the smog...take a look at how much less a gallon of diesel off-gasses compared to a gallon of gasoline.

And when all those cars are stuck idling in LA traffic...guess which ones use less fuel? Too bad you can't buy them...to quote "Get Smart"....

"...Missed it by *that* much..."
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Old 10-29-2007, 02:38 PM   #229
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Old 10-29-2007, 07:08 PM   #230
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rvanengen -

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvanengen View Post
...

1) Might or might not have met US crash standards...but I am betting that it would beat the minimums w/o problems...
2) CA and the NE states have their heads firmly CRAMMED up their collective (dare I say it...socialist) rear ends...about diesels....even if this one was likely a CLEANER car than my wife's 2003 Taurus gasser...
3) And the biggie...I am sure that GM was convinced that nobody here would buy a comfortable, peppy, responsive and affordable smaller car when they can shove the latest incarnation of the Jimmy down our throats!

(errarrrraaaaggghhhhh!!!)
I'll take a "socialist" democracy over a corporatist democracy any day :

Best functioning democracies
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1543571.ece
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1. Sweden
2. Iceland
3. Netherlands
4. Norway
5. Denmark
6. Finland
7. Luxembourg
8. Australia
9. Canada
10. Switzerland
...
17. United States
...
23. Great Britain
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