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Old 10-29-2007, 08:33 PM   #231
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woot go finland!(wheremy family origionally was from) oh and canada too!(cuz canada always rocks)
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Old 10-29-2007, 08:36 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by cfg83 View Post
rvanengen -



I'll take a "socialist" democracy over a corporatist democracy any day :

Best functioning democracies
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...cle1543571.ece


CarloSW2
Good luck to ya! Hope it NEVER happens here...but seems that we are hell-bent on it anyway.

I have seen the effects of socialism (and communism) firsthand and my wife has lived under it -- forget the basic economics (which are bad enough), it destroys the very soul itself. Unfortunately, seems like the corporate model is almost as bad.

Just got done reading the actual "study" by The Economist...or I should say, article...they do not detail the actual results by category, only the summary results. http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/D...EX_2007_v3.pdf Makes me wonder exactly how they know/collected enough information for the categories by country in order to get some to score perfectly. Too many perfect 10's if you ask me.

Just the 1st read through was enough to make me doubt the objectivity of the entire article, and not because the USA scored lower than #1. Seems like something that I would have expected to see in USAToday, not The Economist...they should know better!

Of course, there is also the glaring problem displayed in the complete lack of understanding of the definition of democracy. We don't actually live in a democracy...most people in the world do not.

Anyway... *sigh* *shrug*
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Old 10-29-2007, 08:43 PM   #233
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Just the 1st read through was enough to make me doubt the objectivity of the entire article, and not because the USA scored lower than #1. Seems like something that I would have expected to see in USAToday, not The Economist...they should know better!

Sounds like you only find that it doesn't fit in because the ideas don't swing your way...that's not a judgment from just this statement, either.

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Old 10-29-2007, 09:22 PM   #234
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Sounds like you only find that it doesn't fit in because the ideas don't swing your way...that's not a judgment from just this statement, either.

*shanghaiwhip*
Nope...not at all...even been in the Netherlands, and a lot of my family is from there...but I don't want to live there. Just reading the story, but don't see exactly how their derived their numbers, but it would be interesting to see how. Certainly the Nordic countries would fare well, but they are pretty homogeneous populations...and France rates very poorly and is currently having a lot of problems with recent immigrants.

My complaint (if you wanna call it that) is that the story is only telling part of the story. I would like to see the details of each country, not just the summary. They keep the old saying going "figures lie...and liars figure" when they don't give all the information. Really just seems much more like a political statement on the UK by The Economist than anything else, IMO.

But, hey...think whatcha wanna think! *really big shrug*
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Old 10-29-2007, 09:39 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvanengen View Post
http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/D...EX_2007_v3.pdf Makes me wonder exactly how they know/collected enough information for the categories by country in order to get some to score perfectly. Too many perfect 10's if you ask me.
They explain the scoring system in their methodology And looks like a great deal of their data came from surveying citizens (the irony).

It did make a very good point in it's opening paragraph:
Quote:
...although democracy-
promotion is high on the list of American
foreign-policy priorities, there is no consensus within
the American government on what constitutes a democracy.
As one observer recently put it, ?the world?s
only superpower is rhetorically and militarily promoting
a political system that remains undefi ned?and it
is staking its credibility and treasure on that pursuit?
(Horowitz, 2006, p 114).
Quote:
Just the 1st read through was enough to make me doubt the objectivity of the entire article, and not because the USA scored lower than #1. Seems like something that I would have expected to see in USAToday, not The Economist...they should know better!
I very well can believe that number 1 is Sweden - I remember from high school history seemingly useless facts like the 95% voter turnout in Australia (compared to around 50% for the US.

Hell, Sweden has the "Pirate Party." An official political party with a platform for IP, copyright, patent, etc. reform in addition to privacy protection. This is why you'll find a lot of bootleg movies et. al. coming from Sweden - their government doesn't bother with it.


Quote:
You mean "smoggy"?!?!?! I wish I could find the quote, but I think Native American's original name of the LA region was something like "valley of fog" or "valley of smoke" because the topography has *always" caused a hazy effect.
Sure - that's why I mentioned the weather systems in both regions But the difference between moisture induced haze and poo brown cloud is literally deadly....
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Old 10-29-2007, 09:45 PM   #236
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They explain the scoring system in their methodology And looks like a great deal of their data came from surveying citizens (the irony).
Yes...the scoring system was quite detailed, but what were the figures actually applied for each score by country? Like I said, interesting story.
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:11 PM   #237
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Yes...the scoring system was quite detailed, but what were the figures actually applied for each score by country?
Do you mean the categorized questions list?
i.e.:
Quote:
IV Democratic political culture
36. Is there a suffi cient degree of
societal consensus and cohesion
to underpin a stable, functioning
democracy?
1: Yes
0.5: Yes, but some serious doubts
and risks
0: No

Or I'm just not understanding your question.... Are you asking to see the raw data for all of the 60 questions?

In any case, here's the website for their main source of data:
http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/
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Old 10-29-2007, 10:32 PM   #238
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woot go finland!(wheremy family origionally was from) oh and canada too!(cuz canada always rocks)
My Mom's family is from Norway, so her family settled in Minneapolis (go Vikings!), so I have a sweet spot for fjords.

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Old 10-29-2007, 11:04 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by rvanengen View Post
Good luck to ya! Hope it NEVER happens here...but seems that we are hell-bent on it anyway.
h
I have seen the effects of socialism (and communism) firsthand and my wife has lived under it -- forget the basic economics (which are bad enough), it destroys the very soul itself. Unfortunately, seems like the corporate model is almost as bad.

Just got done reading the actual "study" by The Economist...or I should say, article...they do not detail the actual results by category, only the summary results. http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/D...EX_2007_v3.pdf Makes me wonder exactly how they know/collected enough information for the categories by country in order to get some to score perfectly. Too many perfect 10's if you ask me.

Just the 1st read through was enough to make me doubt the objectivity of the entire article, and not because the USA scored lower than #1. Seems like something that I would have expected to see in USAToday, not The Economist...they should know better!

Of course, there is also the glaring problem displayed in the complete lack of understanding of the definition of democracy. We don't actually live in a democracy...most people in the world do not.

Anyway... *sigh* *shrug*
I think I know what you mean, aka we live in a constitutional republic, yes?

From my POV, at the end of the day they're all just "isms". If you go into a university, they all work "in theory". However, the moment they are implemented in reality, they are subject to corruption. Once an "ism" is in place, the loopholes are exploited and the system is usurped and slowly brought down the tubes. For me, the legitimacy of a system can only be deermined by the quality of life of the people that live under it. Right now I see the USA in a kind of pre-1929 economic instability.

I think that you need a (messy) mix of the isms in tension with one another. The goal is to make them work for you and me.

You're critique is fair. I think the homogenous part is important. My POV is, what countries are "getting it right", and can we translate their solution to our context?

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Old 10-30-2007, 05:29 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by trebuchet03 View Post
Do you mean the categorized questions list?
i.e.:



Or I'm just not understanding your question.... Are you asking to see the raw data for all of the 60 questions?

In any case, here's the website for their main source of data:
http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/
Yes...the raw data is exactly what I am looking for to better understand the survey story.

After looking through the database, I am quickly seeing that the latest survey data for Norway is 1996, Sweden is 1999, USA 1999, Netherlands 1999, Great Britan 1999, East Germany 1999, West Germany 1999, and the newest data point is Iraq in 2004.

Not quite sure what to make of the ages of the data points they are analyzing just yet...

Perhaps there is more data to be "had" by downloading the entire dataset versus browsing it via their online access??
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