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Old 02-27-2009, 12:04 PM   #1
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WTH Honda!

So, I'm looking at the new Motortrend that just came in and they have an America's top 40 for new cars coming out and I noticed something.

Ford Fusion Hybrid
2.5L 191HP combined
0-60: 8.4 seconds
EPA fuel economy: 41/36

Honda Insight
1.3L 98HP combined
0-60: 11.5 seconds
Manufacturer estimated fuel economy: 40/43

Highway lags behind on the Fusion, however, the Fusion gets better city mileage which is where most people drive the majority of the time. Plus, it sounds like a WAY more fun car to drive and recent reports show Ford has better initial build quality than Honda and Toyota now.

The Fusion hybrid is more expensive but it's faster, bigger, and gets pretty close mileage to the Insight.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:12 PM   #2
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better initial build quality???

I would still rate a honda or a toyota of higher quality than any domestic car company. the only exception being trucks (heavy duty ones at that). plus, honda and toyota have been making hybrids a while and ford is just now getting into the game unless you count their hybrid escape and other small projects. honda and toyota have been making a lot of hybrids over the past few years and they have probably worked out most of the kinks associated with hybrids. not to say that ford is going to have issues but they might.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:27 PM   #3
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You're looking at it wrong...it's not about saying "WTH Honda", it's about saying "Good job, Ford". Everybody likes to complain about domestic manufacturers not innovating, not doing what the Japanese do well, not producing practical or efficient cars. Here it is, they're stepping up.

As for initial build quality, why not use an actual survey?
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...spx?id=2008063
Quote:
2008 IQS Ranking Highlights
Honda models capture three segment awards—more than any other nameplate in the 2008 study—for the Civic, CR-V and Fit. Garnering two segment awards each are: Chevrolet (Malibu and Silverado LD); Dodge (Dakota and Durango); Infiniti (EX-Series and M-Series); Lexus (LS and RX); and Mercedes-Benz (CLK-Class and E-Class). The Porsche 911 has the fewest quality problems in the industry, with just 67 problems per 100 vehicles. Also receiving segment awards are the Ford E-Series, Lincoln Navigator, Mazda MX-5 Miata, Pontiac Grand Prix Sedan and Toyota Sequoia.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...tings-by-brand
Ford and Honda are tied in overall, powertrain, body/interior, and features/accessories quality. Honda has the advantage in mechanical quality, however it's not enough to give them an advantage in overall quality.

Surprisingly, Porsche is the winner by a large margin.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:42 PM   #4
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More ratings -- by category...
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...gs-by-category

Midsize: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...ry/midsize-car
Ford Fusion, Mitsubishi Galant, and Chevy Malibu are the winners. Chevy gets the award.

In the compact segment: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...ry/compact-car
Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Prius

For compact sporty cars: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...act-sporty-car
Mazda Miata. Toyota's Scion tC is barely any better than the VW GTI.

In subcompacts: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...ub-compact-car
Honda Fit is the winner, but Kia Rio comes close and Hyundai Accent make a strong showing, beating Scion xD, Toyota Yaris, Nissan Versa, and Chevy Aveo by a large margin.

Large cars: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...gory/large-car
Pontiac leads strongly and has the award. Mercury comes in second and third with two models. Nissan, Ford Taurus (which should get the same as the Mercury Sable), Toyota, Chevy, and Buick stand in the middle, with Dodge, Dodge and Chrysler bringing up the rear.

I have lately wondered if my old prejudice against Chrysler products was wrong, but looking at all these results I see that they really are that bad. Other than that, there's few surprises for me here; I knew that Honda and Toyota are much-beloved by small car buyers, I knew that Hyundai is better than people think (though I didn't know Kia was putting out a nearly leading product), and I knew that GM and Ford were doing far better than their reputations.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:49 PM   #5
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Yeah, should have worded it differently but I was being lazy right before lunch. I'll have to find the article again that found Ford at the top of the build quality list. I'm surprised to see Scion so low on the IQS list and considering how many people here swear by Saturn, I'm surprised that they are almost at the bottom of that list.

Focus aside, I like Ford. Their new Focus coupe is as dull as dishwater but I do want a Fiesta when they come out. Plus, the fact that they have had such an improvement while turning down bailout money really says a lot.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:55 PM   #6
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Chrysler wins in two categories, not bad, but their cars do suck. The only Chrysler vehicle I liked(recent anyways) was the 300m, and now the Challenger too.
Midsize Truck
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...midsize-pickup
Dakota

Midsize SUV(MAV?)
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...tivity-vehicle
Durango

Kia and Hyundai have really kicked some *** in recent years. Their cars are reliable and a lot of people like the looks of them now. I like the new Sonata, I couldn't find a single thing to complain about it on the test drive except the jerk dealer. You couldn't pay me to take a 90's Kia or Hyundai but if I had kids looking for a car right now that'd be the first place we visit.
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:27 PM   #7
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I didn't bother with trucks because I figured they weren't relevant to this thread and I didn't want to stray any further from the topic.

Full-size pickups go Chevy-Toyota-Chevy. Oddly, GMC is solidly in the middle, nowhere near its Chevy sister truck's ratings, which makes me question the survey...why would that be? The Chevy turned in almost a perfect score and the GMC was mediocre across the board. I know that GM has been trying to differentiate them more lately and that could affect body/interior/accessory ratings, but it shouldn't affect the "powertrain" and "mechanical" ratings.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkjones96 View Post
So, I'm looking at the new Motortrend that just came in and they have an America's top 40 for new cars coming out and I noticed something.

Ford Fusion Hybrid
2.5L 191HP combined
0-60: 8.4 seconds
EPA fuel economy: 41/36

Honda Insight
1.3L 98HP combined
0-60: 11.5 seconds
Manufacturer estimated fuel economy: 40/43

Highway lags behind on the Fusion, however, the Fusion gets better city mileage which is where most people drive the majority of the time. Plus, it sounds like a WAY more fun car to drive and recent reports show Ford has better initial build quality than Honda and Toyota now.

The Fusion hybrid is more expensive but it's faster, bigger, and gets pretty close mileage to the Insight.
The Fusion is a Prius-like hybrid with EV mode at low speeds. The Insight is an IMA hybrid - more like an assist, with no EV mode.

The real trick here is price: $27k for Fusion hybrid, "under 20k" for Insight. Honda did cut some corners with the Insight, but the price reflects it. Good job to Ford for such performance, but Honda nearly equals it (combined), while vastly undercutting on price. You could argue that the hatch configuration is more usable, too.
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Old 02-27-2009, 03:22 PM   #9
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I don't think much of the domestic brands anymore because of all the bailout stuff. I will admit that ford has caught my attention by not taking any money but they have paved the way "just in case" which I can't say is a bad idea.

honda and toyota (to me) will always have the best quality regardless of what experts say. you don't see too many hyundais with 200k+ miles on them and there is good reason for that. people try to say that the quality has changed over the years but I still remember hyundais of old and kia as well. my parents had a hyundai (must have been mid to late 90s) and had nothing but problems out of it. that sticks with you a loooooong time.

and kia, they are doing a deal right now in high point NC, buy one-get one free. no kidding!!!! if you buy either the van or the SUV, you get the small car for free. that screams quality issues to me especially when the van or SUV is a few thousand less than toyota or honda and that is before you factor in the free car.

I hope ford does come out with some good vehicles in the future. I still worry about a new hybrid on the market from a company that isn't known for their hybrids. time will tell on that one and maybe it is just as good or better than what is out there.

there again, time will tell.
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Old 02-27-2009, 03:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by BEEF View Post
I don't think much of the domestic brands anymore because of all the bailout stuff. I will admit that ford has caught my attention by not taking any money but they have paved the way "just in case" which I can't say is a bad idea.
it occured to me today that ford has received help from our gov't, for many years. they seem to have cornered the market on sales of public works vehicles.

i'm w/ ya on the longevity factor. when the big 3 can become perennial players in the small car market, perhaps they'll get more converts.
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