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Old 03-22-2008, 03:24 PM   #11
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Well, originally, Water Wetter was developed for corrosion problems that fire departments had in their pump units.

Basically, it's a surfactant that breaks up the surface tension of a liquid for a cooling application. So, where water will boil, Water Wetter reduces the surface tension so that the bubble size is smaller, and more heat continues to be transfered to the water rather than the air bubbles, which are terrible for shedding heat.

On the other side, Palmolive does the same thing as Water Wetter. It has surfactants in it that reduce the surface tension, and I've used that regularly in race bikes where we're not allowed to use mixes of water an propylene glycol coolants. Ethylene glycol is forbidden as any track based coolant for motorcycle road racing. I'm pretty sure that that applies on the car side too.

In my our Ford Focus and my E350, I run straight Evans Coolant NPG+ with no water added at all. It's an ethylene glycol and propylene glycol mix. Water's the enemy, to me, as it's the source of corrosion. Water does shed heat really, really, really well. That's it's advantage. But it's got that hot spot problem.

Under no pressure, the EG/PG mix I used has a boiling point that is substantially above water and above water and above water with anti freeze.

In some race applications, we've seen that the temperature reads higher using straight proplyene glycol, again sourced from Evans, but the actual engine temperature to the touch was cooler than our long term experiences before. Our explaination was that the coolant was always picking up heat in addition to never allowing hot spots to cause the coolant to boil, thus reducing the cooling ability of the liquid at that point and keeping the temperature of the coolant down as it was never getting hot.

Maybe that makes some sense, maybe it doesn't.

Ethylene glycol alone doesn't shed heat very well alone. That's why it needs water.
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:26 PM   #12
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I use the Evans NPG (non-aqueous propylene glycol) in my F350. These IH engines have a tremendous water pump that pumps water so fast it cavitates on the first two cylinders. There are documented examples of the cylinder walls being eroded right through by the cavitation pitting. These engines are designed for savage duty and there is no toning those water pumps down without spending thousands of dollars. So the last thing I have to worry about is heat rejection. Also the Evans has a boiling point over 400 degrees. That obviates cavitation and allows easy use of a hotter thermostat. The hotter stat (203 degrees in my case) tightens engine clearances and makes her run more efficiently. Since I carefully got all the water out of the system when I changed over, corrosion is no longer in the cards, so I don?t have to worry about cooling system degradation over time.

I also installed a sidestream filter to remove the solids (rust, casting sand) out of my cooling system. The first couple got a lot of gunk out but the last couple years ? nothing.

So my cooling system is good to go. Now, if I can just find a 230 degree stat. Of course with a 230 degree stat, my heater might burn my fingers off.
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:34 PM   #13
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Big Dave, it sounds like we have the same map...LOL!

I have the 203 t-stat too. I have a coolant filter, but E350's are a little tight: I haven't found a good place to mount it yet.
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Old 04-07-2008, 06:19 PM   #14
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I was always under the impression that cavitation was caused by microscopic stretching of the cylinder walls (actually a pressure wave) with each firing causing tiny coolant bubbles to form and collapse. I was told that this hammers holes in the cylinder liners and that SCA's (supplemental coolant additives) in diesel coolant created a protective film that coated the cylinder walls and helped cushion the blows of the tiny bubbles.

I didn't know that a high flow water pump could cause this- unless it was somehow creating a vacuum- but don't V-8 water pumps usually such straight from the radiator and push coolant directly into the cylinders 1 and 2 water jackets?

I have heard of the gears on gear type hydraulic pumps being damaged by cavitation if the pumps are allowed to suck air.
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik View Post
I was always under the impression that cavitation was caused by microscopic stretching of the cylinder walls (actually a pressure wave) with each firing causing tiny coolant bubbles to form and collapse. I was told that this hammers holes in the cylinder liners and that SCA's (supplemental coolant additives) in diesel coolant created a protective film that coated the cylinder walls and helped cushion the blows of the tiny bubbles.

I didn't know that a high flow water pump could cause this- unless it was somehow creating a vacuum- but don't V-8 water pumps usually such straight from the radiator and push coolant directly into the cylinders 1 and 2 water jackets?

I have heard of the gears on gear type hydraulic pumps being damaged by cavitation if the pumps are allowed to suck air.
any type of pump can cavitate if it's trying to draw more of any fluid than is available. Cavitation manifests itself in the LOW pressure part of the pump, not the high pressure side. the shortest way to say it is that the pump draws more fluid than can be supplied and the pressure on the intake side drops so low the liquid boils. the alternating water/air impacts can damage just about everything involved.

cylinder wall bubbling is a whole different animal
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:55 AM   #16
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Straight anti-freeze doesn't have the specific heat or thermal conductivity that water does and that's why it isn't a good idea.

Without the high specific heat you have to pump much more of the fluid through the engine to get the same amount of cooling because it just doesn't hold as much. At the same time, if the fluid doesn't conduct heat well it'll stay in the engine and you'll have bigger fish to fry.

That's also why people don't run something like straight mineral oil in the cooling system.

Quote:
In a 50% solution with operational temperatures above 36 oF the specific heat capacity is decreased with aprox. 20%. The reduced specific heat capacity must be compensated by circulating more fluid...Note! Distilled or deionized water should be used for ethylene glycol solutions. City water is often treated with chlorine, which is corrosive, and should be avoided.
From www.engineeringtoolbox.com
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:21 AM   #17
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Red face

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Originally Posted by VetteOwner View Post
really...

lol why use distilled water? i just use whatever comes outa the garden hose...

also cant use pure water cuz it would probably boil in todays cars, freeze in the winter, and yes no corrosion protection.

if your wantign to run hot for some reason just use tape over the front of the radiator, if you cant get air to move between the fins to cool it then walla! it wont cool

just put in the correct ammount of coolant and water ratio per your cimate.
If you use tap water you will get all of the mineral in the water depositing out to the inside passageways of the block. Over time it gets built up and becomes effectively a separation from the coolant to the block.

If you use distilled water, you don't get all of the deposits and the inner passageways stay clean.

I switched to distilled water and antifreeze a long time ago and it has done nothing but save me a ton of headaches I used to get, when I used plain tapwater.
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:24 AM   #18
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Screw coolant, replumb it with all with insulated high pressure lines and run E85 as a phase change refrigerant... oh and supply the fuel line off the vapor side...
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Old 04-08-2008, 11:31 AM   #19
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One problem with water based coolants are that they do have a point where they loose their ability to hold any heat. Then liquid turns to vapor...and now you're air cooling that spot, higher internal pressures, and very hot spots in specifically hot portions of the engine.

The stuff that Dave and I are using is PG and EG together. It's a little different.

Since it has a very high boiling point, it allows some unique opportunities. It doesn't have to be under pressure. I had a leak in my rear heater, so, I just loosened my degas bottle cap...now I'm running with a vented system that isn't producing really any pressure, and I wasn't forced to make a road side locate & repair.

I will admit that the PSD system is known to be a little over kill, but my long term testing in our Focus hasn't caused any problems or substantial changes. I do recognize that I won't have the internal corrosion issues that can happen because of a deteriorating coolant with water in it.

Individual choices will vary.
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:55 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Gary Palmer View Post
If you use tap water you will get all of the mineral in the water depositing out to the inside passageways of the block. Over time it gets built up and becomes effectively a separation from the coolant to the block.

If you use distilled water, you don't get all of the deposits and the inner passageways stay clean.

I switched to distilled water and antifreeze a long time ago and it has done nothing but save me a ton of headaches I used to get, when I used plain tapwater.
well it might depend on your water, ours is pretty good (especially since we live 1 block from the towns water tower and treatment plant) weve never had any cooling related problems and weve always just run 50/50 mix of water and coolant.

so if you have very hard water (alot of lime/iron) then yea i could see using distilled
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