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Old 10-18-2007, 08:07 PM   #41
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Look I HATE ricers! But you have to understand alot of them are gear heads and take care of their rides better than alot of people.

If your saying cold start and go is not bad, you are in left field.

Around here its about 50/50 with ricers. Some take care of their ISH and some don't.
I have been through that phase, and hate everything about it. Love my brother car, as it is not a ricer, everything is done with correct parts and has had the computer dyno tuned.

If your saying that an engine that makes more power is not more efficient, you need to read into that. Less effort, more efficient. Its the same in humans *kind of* a stronger man can lift the same box as me, but he uses less energy doing the same work as I do, even at the same pace. More power is only bad if it is used.

I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to explain altering your O2 output will hurt you more than it will help you.

4mpg takes 10 gallons of gas to save you appx $3.00 so in 200 gallons of gas, if you have not terminally damaged your engine, than you are ahead. Lean is bad in every single way. To me, the longevity and reliability of my engine is worth more than $3 for every 400 miles drove.
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:12 PM   #42
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If you rev your engine to create heat so it warms up quicker, you are taking hours and hours off of its life.. But hey, its your engine not mine. My WRX warms up for 5-10 every morning.
Wait a sec...

You may be using some of these techniques because of your turbo.

Do a search on "warming up" here, and you find the same info... drive slowly to warm up an engine. Idling is by far the worst thing you can do for FE, emissions, and vehicle longevity....

You're not warming up the transmission or suspension components by sitting.

When I ran Volunteer Fire/EMS, I'd run to the car, cold start, and tear-off, full-throttle, lights and siren to the station. I'd try not to hit redline in first, but the Civic DX needed revs to get going. It survived a lot of abuse, but not the ideal situation, and it burnt gas like mad in those situations. Same for idling...

Back to the turbo. In cold weather, my Evo wouldn't shift into 2nd until it idled for 2-minutes -- too stiff. Further, letting the clutch-out in neutral bogged the engine with the viscosity of the transaxle fluids. These are rare exceptions to the "no idle rule", and a cold experience waiting with the clutch depressed . Once I got to the highway, the Evo wouldn't allow full-boost until coolant temps were up to nominal. Another protective feature in cold weather. The Toyota/Pontiac Vibe/Matrix has a similar low-power warm-up stage.

Conclusion: Drive slowly to warm up all moving vehicle parts.

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Old 10-18-2007, 08:25 PM   #43
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Will do and I'll quote it, but I know I'm not going to be the guy with the pistons froze in the cylinders, or the poor oil rings tearing into the side of the cylinders. I've always warmed up my vehicles, including my sportbikes, and never had an issue. I honestly don't care about emissions, as bad as it sounds, as soon as jets stop flying, trains stop pouring black smoke into the air, and factories stop spewing waste into the air, Then I will care. My Vx and WRX would both pass emissions by a mile, but if emissions while warming up is an issue, that is a VERY small issue at stake.

Moreover, its your car, not mine, I'm just saying from my experience between on and off-road gas engines, warming it up, to at least AT LEAST 100 degrees is a good thing. I'm not saying that hopping in and tearing off in it is going to blow it up right away, but it sure isn't good on it.

And warming up your suspension components, you can do that after the engine is warm. I'm 99.9% concerned with the engine. and actually, yes your trans axle fluids are being warmed up, you do realize that in neutral a standard car still spins the input shaft. The clutch is engaged, and the input shaft is spinning kicking up oil.... So your trans axle fluid actually does warm up if you let your car Idle to warm up.

If your that concerned with fuel, get a clutch kill switch start it and gear and go, but don't expect 200k out of the rings or mains, I wouldn't get excited about 100k after doing that.

This is from experience not hearsay. I've seen 4 - Honda 4 wheeler engines seized because of lack of warm up. 1 Festiva engine seized (kid got in it started it with the gas to the floor and spun 2 and 3 main. Don't say it can't happen, heat is EVERY THINGS worst enemy, especially your engine!
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:28 PM   #44
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...If your saying cold start and go is not bad, you are in left field...
Nah, maybe warmup is a thing that can be optimized by application though.

i.e. start, wait 7 seconds, then drive it for two blocks before starting to kill the engine
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:36 PM   #45
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If your saying that an engine that makes more power is not more efficient, you need to read into that. Less effort, more efficient. Its the same in humans *kind of* a stronger man can lift the same box as me, but he uses less energy doing the same work as I do, even at the same pace. More power is only bad if it is used.
Wow.... Just wow....

1. Yes, let us read up...
Quote:
If your saying that an engine that makes more power is not more efficient, you need to read into that.
So, let us look at a differential unit of work, dW.
Thermodynamics tells us that
dW=dQ_cold-(-dQ_hot)
which means that the heat engine takes heat (Q) from the hot reservoir, gets some work out and then moves the remainder of that heat to the cold reservoir/sink.

So efficiency is how much you get versus how much you put in...

so E=-dW/-dQ_hot but dW=that equation above so:
E=(-dQh-dQc)/dQh
^Note the role of power output here...

Just for fun, here's what the theoretical maximum efficiency looks like (simplified for carnot cycle)
E=(Th-Tc)/Th

Where T=temperature in your choice of absolute scale (Kelvin or Rankine)
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So what did we learn from thermodynamics.... Power output is independent of heat engine efficiency

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Its the same in humans *kind of* a stronger man can lift the same box as me, but he uses less energy doing the same work as I do, even at the same pace.
Okay.... Hrmmm.... Yikes...
Energy...
Lets just look at the change in potential energy....
V=m*g*h

It would seem that both people use the same energy.... Lets assume they both take the same amount of time to lift the box... So work, if we recall classical physics is basically F*H (distance).... Given the same lift force (as we're taking the same amount of time), and we're going the same distance... What would you know - both have the same amount of work.. Nice


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So what's all this talk about ricers? No one else is talking about 'em, but you seem to be rather bothered by them

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In any case, US EPA has already done this analysis.... Result -- idling wears more and is more costly Drive once you have oil pressure
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:52 PM   #46
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haha anyway, you keep it up, but you just run your car as lean as you can and save your mileage. Just remember, detonation kills. And LEAN=HEAT! The more heat you produce the more friction is created. The more friction that is created the more internal drag and engine occurs. The more drag the less power. The less power an engine makes the more it must overcome JUST for itself.

Physics is great, but you talk to an oldschool gearhead and ask him about physics, he will laugh at you.

But I don't know the first thing about fuel management, I'm too young. I haven't built an engine. I haven't seen spun bearings, seized pistons, broken ring lands (from lean situations).

If you want efficiency, you HAVE to spend money, its the bottom line. Fooling your o2 will make your rich situations better, but will make your lean situations worse more or less you will move your a/f curve down a notch, just hope you don't have a split second of bad gas, or alot of them.

And telling me that more power = worse fuel mileage. Than explain a 2007 Corvette z06.... 427... consistent 30mpg... hmm pretty efficient for a 500hp 2800lb car.... Its not how much fuel you give your engine! its what your engine does with what fuel you give it!!!!!!!
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Old 10-18-2007, 08:55 PM   #47
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And telling me that more power = worse fuel mileage. Than explain a 2007 Corvette z06.... 427... consistent 30mpg... hmm pretty efficient for a 500hp 2800lb car.... Its not how much fuel you give your engine! its what your engine does with what fuel you give it!!!!!!!
I've generally seen lower figures than the quoted 30mpg highway, and besides that, most cars could get ridiculously good mileage with a supertall 6th gear and without doing any acceleration...
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Old 10-18-2007, 09:07 PM   #48
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the highest mpg ICE street legal vehicles are small and not long on power.
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Old 10-18-2007, 09:08 PM   #49
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And telling me that more power = worse fuel mileage. Than explain a 2007 Corvette z06.... 427... consistent 30mpg... hmm pretty efficient for a 500hp 2800lb car.... Its not how much fuel you give your engine! its what your engine does with what fuel you give it!!!!!!!
Wow... I wish I could see your face... so I could laugh at it...

1. I say what I mean
2. I am literal
3. Unless you see that I type it - I didn't.

I did not once say that more power = less efficiency... I did, however, say that power is INDEPENDENT.

Quote:
Physics is great, but you talk to an oldschool gearhead and ask him about physics, he will laugh at you.
It's a good thing these gearheads don't actually design these engines*... sure, they build 'em - but that's a far cry from design But in any case, gearheads didn't develop thermodynamic laws

Quote:
And telling me that more power = worse fuel mileage. Than explain a 2007 Corvette z06.... 427... consistent 30mpg... hmm pretty efficient for a 500hp 2800lb car....
VW 1L project... .3L displacement... 235mpg

Quote:
Its not how much fuel you give your engine! its what your engine does with what fuel you give it!!!!!!!
Wow, that's EXACTLY what I've been telling you.... Again, power is not in that equation.

Quote:
But I don't know the first thing about fuel management, I'm too young.
Why would you lecture on the subject with those credentials?

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As always, anecdotal evidence isn't worth spit Bring repeatable empirical evidence with methodology - and people will listen (and you'll establish credibility just by making the effort).


*I shouldn't make such a blanket statement - I'm sure there's an Engineer/Designer/motorhead out there I may fall on my own sword for a statement like that, but at least I didn't miss the point
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Old 10-18-2007, 09:14 PM   #50
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