Intake Air Temp resistor experiment. - Page 2 - Fuelly Forums

Android Users - Coming Soon! - Migrating from aCar 4.8 to 5.0

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-25-2007, 07:12 PM   #11
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 303
Country: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by JanGeo View Post
I gotta believe that you are forcing an extra lean condition that the O2 sensor feelback can not compensate for and are producing a lot more NO2 emissions as a result. Pretty impressive results however.
I have no data based reason to disagree with you. Another known phenomena is HCCI Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition. It is very difficult to control but Honda has managed to do so for some years now on 2-stroke scooters sold external to the US. They call it Active Radical Combustion. It is associated with high EGR rates, but that is a real stretch in this case. That is very unlikely. Major corporations such as Catepillar are spending large sums trying to control HCCI but the efficiency gains are in line with what I am experiencing. Here is a definition. This actually is associated with low levels of NO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HCCI

Ernie
__________________

__________________
usedgeo
usedgeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 07:24 PM   #12
Supporting Member
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,779
Country: United States
usedgeo -

(copied from http://www.gassavers.org/showpost.ph...18&postcount=2)

Thanks for making a new thread on this. I keep imagining a "clicking dial" on my dashboard that goes from "off" to different resistor settings that mess with the IAT input. Different cars can have different resistors. I don't think a potentiometer would work because the resistance range is too great (right?).

1 - For car ECU/PCMs that like this mod, I think it makes a big difference. I also think that, if possible, it would be nice to know what the emissions are. For the purpose of an experiment, anything goes, but I also want to know the long term effects are on the emissions.

2 - You'll burn your valves out! Ha ha ! This is the "A Christmas Story" argument, aka "you'll shoot your eyes out!". How is you engine doing? Can you gauge the engine temperature with and without the mod? Since we are "driving gentle" I don't think the engine is at risk, but I would like to know that the long term effects are on the car and what the "danger zone" is.

CarloSW2
__________________

__________________
Old School SW2 EPA ... New School Civic EPA :

What's your EPA MPG? http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp
cfg83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 07:28 PM   #13
Supporting Member
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,779
Country: United States
MetroMPG -

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Too bad the SG doesn't show short/long term fuel trim - that would answer some questions.

JanGeo: if the O2 sensor wasn't able to correct for a lean condition, I'm pretty sure it would throw a code, wouldn't it?
If you know the code, you can get a solicited response from the ECU/PCM (in hex ), but that won't help you with continuous monitoring.

This will become available on the next generation of SG software, where you have programmable gauges.

CarloSW2
__________________
Old School SW2 EPA ... New School Civic EPA :

What's your EPA MPG? http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp
cfg83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 07:48 PM   #14
Supporting Member
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,779
Country: United States
usedgeo-

Quote:
Originally Posted by usedgeo View Post
I would not say I that I am not losing power. I really haven't used hard acceleration lately. I meant to say that it is running very smoothly with no bucking or hint of a lean condition. This was just beyond my wildest expectations.

With respect to the EGR it is partly used to limit detonation and control peak combustion temperature. When the engine is fed very hot air both of these will increase. I think the EGR ratio is increasing and this is lowering the throttle loss. The only instruments I have that could give a verdict on this are the TPS and MAP sensors. It was just too much to watch in my excitement.

Ernie
Here is what I read. I apologize for not having the URL . In lean burn conditions that go to far, you can burn out your catalytic converter. Here is an ideal world test that you could do if you have the $$ to burn :

1 - Get a high temperature thermometer that is rated to about 1000 degrees.

2 - Install it post catalytic converter. EDIT : INSTALL IN EXHAUST HEADER, NOT POST CAT

3 - Run the car as normal without the IAT mod.

4 - Run the car with the mod.

In step 4 you *should* see the temperature increase as compared to step 3. If the temperature increases 180 degrees F over the temperatures in step 3, then you are in danger of damaging your catalytic converter (EDIT : DAMAGE WILL RESULT TO VALVES, NOT CAT). For me, that would mean shooting for a "safe" maximum of 100 degrees F over step 3.

EDIT : SEE (http://www.gassavers.org/showpost.ph...19&postcount=8) FOR SOURCE OF INFO.

CarloSW2
__________________
Old School SW2 EPA ... New School Civic EPA :

What's your EPA MPG? http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp
cfg83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 08:14 PM   #15
Registered Member
 
JanGeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,442
Country: United States
Send a message via Yahoo to JanGeo
What may happen is the table for the fuel injection has entries for that false air temperature but the O2 sensor can only correct for slight deviations from the table entries. If you have a lot of EGR gasses coming back in then that would reduce the NO2 levels. Isn't NO2 Nitrious Oxide and a combustion enhanser?? Humm that would explain the dizzyness I felt one time when I got a big whiff of a car's exhost.
JanGeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 08:19 PM   #16
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 358
Country: United States
If that's the case, will an altered O2 sensor correct the emissions increase? EFIE makes a voltage alteration chip for the O2 sensor that exists so that you can make the O2 sensor give off a false reading.
repete86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 08:34 PM   #17
Registered Member
 
JanGeo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,442
Country: United States
Send a message via Yahoo to JanGeo
yes but again it can only correct so far - within the expected variations that is programmed into the ECU injection tables. This is why when a Turbo is added the tables have to be reprogrammed to allow for more than usual fuel when more than expected air is forced into the engine and to run a little richer to prevent detonation. Changing the readings from the O2 sensor will operate the CAT at the wrong temp fuel gasses mixtures and could result in costly damage but it sure does increase the MPG!
JanGeo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 09:48 PM   #18
Supporting Member
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,779
Country: United States
repete86 -

Quote:
Originally Posted by repete86 View Post
If that's the case, will an altered O2 sensor correct the emissions increase? EFIE makes a voltage alteration chip for the O2 sensor that exists so that you can make the O2 sensor give off a false reading.
I just ordered one for my hydrogen gizmo thingy. Of multiple exhaust mod choices to go with the gizmo, this is the easiest mod because it is "automatic" (you dial-in the air/fuel ratio bias). This will give me a guaranteed lean-burn condition. I also have access to a dyno through my mechanic, so I will be in a position to quantify my emissions. The goal is lean-burn and NOx compliance.

CarloSW2
__________________
Old School SW2 EPA ... New School Civic EPA :

What's your EPA MPG? http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp
cfg83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 10:41 PM   #19
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 358
Country: United States
I would have been doing this with the intention of reducing emissions. I'm going to have to do more research to find a way to fix this problem. My mileage improvements have been done for environmental, not economic reasons.
repete86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2007, 11:11 PM   #20
Supporting Member
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,779
Country: United States
repete86 -

Quote:
Originally Posted by repete86 View Post
I would have been doing this with the intention of reducing emissions. I'm going to have to do more research to find a way to fix this problem. My mileage improvements have been done for environmental, not economic reasons.
My goal is to comply with clean emissions also. The law, in the case of California, is pretty strict. If I can comply with California emissions, then I am good to go.

Lean-burn, from what I understand, reduces HC and CO emissions. It's the NOx emissions that go up. NOx emissions is the bain of diesels. I think that the key to Honda's new clean diesel is the emissions scrubber :

Honda Previews Next-Generation Engine and Power Technologies
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006...previews_.html
Quote:
Next-Generation Diesel Engine. Honda’s new diesel, targeted for introduction in the US by 2009, will not use a urea-based SCR system to meet the US Tier 2 Bin 5 standards. (Earlier post.) Instead, it is using a combination of an advanced combustion management (PCCI) and a new NOx catalytic converter, about which it provided more details.

The new catalytic converter utilizes a two-layer structure: one layer adsorbs NOx from the exhaust gas and converts a portion of it into ammonia, while the other layer adsorbs the resulting ammonia, and uses it later in a reaction that converts the remaining NOx in the exhaust into nitrogen (N2).

Ammonia is a highly effective reagent for reducing NOx into N2 in an oxygen-rich, lean-burn atmosphere—urea-based SCR system derive ammonia from the urea.

Honda’s ability to generate and store ammonia within the catalytic converter enables the creation of a compact, lightweight NOx reduction system for diesel engines. The system also features enhanced NOx reduction performance at 200–300ºC, the main temperature range of diesel engines.
However, please don't hesitate to *test* the mod .

CarloSW2
__________________

__________________
Old School SW2 EPA ... New School Civic EPA :

What's your EPA MPG? http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectYear.jsp
cfg83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best Diesel in N. Texas? JudisJetta General Fuel Topics 7 05-28-2010 09:55 AM
Incorrect Milage Calcuatlion PatM Fuelly Web Support and Community News 4 07-17-2009 08:21 PM
Gallons per Mile? nerb Fuelly Web Support and Community News 1 11-12-2008 04:33 AM
Last Minute Tips for College? SVOboy General Discussion (Off-Topic) 27 09-13-2006 08:15 AM
Throttle spring...pedal vs RPM? ZugyNA General Fuel Topics 17 08-01-2006 05:17 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.